Poker table idea

[jdgrimm]

OK, i'm a complete newbie to the site so try not to flame to much, or at least make it constructive. I would like to make this be an example for other newbies with the type of questions.

I have an enhancement idea to those felt poker tabletops you can buy for around $40-50...you know the ones i'm talking about. Anyways, i have the idea of adding some electrical pieces to this(similar to the electrical counter on a foosball table), nothing to complex. Where do i start? My optomistic goal would be to have an overseas company manufacture it them i would sell them through the companies like wal-marts, costco, etc. I have a couple llc's that i could work under if need be, so could the constructive ideas revolve around the beginning of getting this idea started/launched. I'm sure there are a million different ways...but just some general info would help.

Thanks in advance!

[jdoc]

Welcome.

What exactly would these electronics do?

The first thing to do is to ensure that there's a demand for what you are going to offer. Talk to local card gaming shops and ask around. Are people looking for electronic features? How much more would they willing to pay over regular tables? If you know lots of home poker enthusiasts (there are tons out there right now), they'll be your best resource.

If you've decided to proceed, the next thing to do is design the table. Do you know how to design the electronics yourself? Once you have the designs, then you can decide how/where you want them manufactured. Offshore is probably the cheapest option, but if you don't have any experience with working with foreign companies you should look to find someone to help you build the right relationships.

I think that trying to hit up a major retailer at first is a bit of a stretch. Most places want to see an established sales record on a product before they'll supply it. I would look at the specialty stores and the local chains in your area. Going online is also a low cost option (eg. sell through e-bay, etc.).

Look into marketing your product at local casinos (if they exist) and gaming centres. Find the major influencers in your area (eg. if there's any pro poker players, see if you can win their endorsement) and use them to spread the word. Expand geographically once you've proven that your product sells.

Just some thoughts, hope they help.

[MetalGod]

I think it would be great to make a poker table with little video cameras for each person, so someone can film their own "World Poker Tour"-like poker games.

[jdgrimm]

i have no electrical knowledge so i would be looking for a manufacturing company to build it. Basically the idea is simple yet solves a problem that myself and friends always face when playing. It is a chip counter that will count the value of your chips that you have in your tray in front of you. Many times you like to know exactly where you stand(e.i., when needing to call an ALL IN). Each different trey would be for different $ chips. This seems like it would be a simple device that many ppl would pay just a little bit more for for the convience.

[MetalGod]

I suppose if each type of chip was in its own compartment, you could use something similar to a weight scale to see how much the chips weigh to determine how many there are.

A more complicated way (that some casinos are moving towards) is using an RFID embedded in each chip.

[akula]

OK, i'm a complete newbie to the site so try not to flame to much, or at least make it constructive. I would like to make this be an example for other newbies with the type of questions.

I have an enhancement idea to those felt poker tabletops you can buy for around $40-50...you know the ones i'm talking about. Anyways, i have the idea of adding some electrical pieces to this(similar to the electrical counter on a foosball table), nothing to complex. Where do i start? My optomistic goal would be to have an overseas company manufacture it them i would sell them through the companies like wal-marts, costco, etc. I have a couple llc's that i could work under if need be, so could the constructive ideas revolve around the beginning of getting this idea started/launched. I'm sure there are a million different ways...but just some general info would help.

Thanks in advance!

The idea sounds fine. From an investment perspective, you could use a few patents, and a larger market, some A class players on your team, but other than that, the idea sounds fine.

To kick start the thing: Definitely a direct sales model. What you need to do is get leverage to force a major casino to buy your stuff. If you approach them now: you have no proof that the thing works, that the gamblers like it or that you have the maintenance infrastructure to honour warranties, or that your products are not infringing someone else's intellectual property rights and could get pulled off the market at any time.

With your current state, everybody is a lot better off not dealing with you, because you are too much of a risk as a supplier.

To correct these problems and move forward, you need to start by organising a focus group, there are plenty of agencies that can help you do that, and you need to start collecting data.

- What are the demographics for gamblers?
- What are some of the annoying things they find with their gambling experience.
- Rank these annoyance factor on scale 1-10 (shitty security guards vs. crap food vs. poker table related problems)
- Collect the answers to these questions, this is valuable market research, and approach the casino's marketing department to buy this info from you.

Selling somebody secrets about their own business, is usually a very strong value proposition. It's like saying something like "guess what someone told me about you", and then saying "well...now I'm not gonna tell you". You should have no problem selling this data to a casino because if they don't buy it, there is a risk that they'll miss out on some important information, and this mistake might put somebody out of a job.

To make it mnore foolproof, ask the question from your focus group, "Rank your favourite casinos", then you can approach the casino marketing manager and say "Your casino is at danger of losing customesr to another casino because of three important reasons". It'll cost you $xyz to find out more".

Also, by selling research to casinos you will achieve the following three things:

a) Get contacts in the industry, and build a relationship with your future customers, who will refer you to other important people.
b) Get some startup money, and have the leverage to attract further finance.
c) Know for sure if there is demand for these chip counters, and how strong this demand is compared to other demands (like demand for better casino security or food), and be able to prove that this demand exists to other people.

If you know this info, then you can pressure the casino to order the tables from you because you have proof that a) customers will want them b) it's an important part of their gaming experience, more than other factors c) they would consider leaving your casino, if another casino had better poker tables.

This entire process should take 2 week max, but it will substantively tell you if your venture is worth pursuing or not, and arm you with a lot of ammunition to push the startup process further (if need be, because you might find out that gamblers specifically do not want their chips to be electronically counted for a variety of very important reasons).

That's, basically, the safe way to kick start the company. The daredevil method, is piling up your garage with prototypes and then trying to sell them. You should not do the daredevil thing - it's harder.

[Sarafina]

Wait a second, who is the market?

Casinos and pro tourneys or average home users? Very important. For one, considering 'counting chips' is one of the job functions of the dealer, i'm finding it hard to see how casinos would benefit from this as a stand alone solution. You definitely need to add more features into that electronic thing-a-majiggy.

Now I can see it working for home users because they usually don't have a designated dealer to the all the hard work for them. One thing I can say confuses me is making side pots. Perhaps you should have a side pot calculator as another feature as well.

[haydn]

This is a stupid idea, if you dont know how to count how many chips u have in front of you, you shouldnt be playing poker in the first place. Most players have a pretty good idea of their chip count.

[akula]

This is a stupid idea, if you dont know how to count how many chips u have in front of you, you shouldnt be playing poker in the first place. Most players have a pretty good idea of their chip count.

I think you should pay attention to what Sarafina and Haydn are saying.

Before starting out, you need to figure out these things; who are your best potential customers? is there demand for the product? what price would people expect to pay for it?

You can also see the most common affliction entrepreneurs have; such as in my case, Sarafina's case, and Haydn's case - entrepreneurs try to make predictions on what might or might not work - and they do it on nothing little more than a hunch.

Now...there is nothing wrong with a good hunch...but there is a very important point to be made about the dynamics of entrepreneurship: people don't end up running companies they think they're gonna be running. That's why you need to start somewhere, because it's not where you start, but where you are going, which is the more important consideration in the process of starting companies.


Here's Paul Kedrosky's post on this point, where he sites an interesting interview between a venture capitalist and a reporter:

http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/002231.html

Angel Mehta has up an interesting interview/profile of venture guy Bill Tsai of Charles River Ventures. Bill's a skilled venture investor, and he has some solid comments on thematic investing (not his bag), the role of good luck in venture (very high), and the importance of having a flexible founding team (crucial).

Angel Mehta: Going back to the issue of luck, does that mean that there is nothing in particular that you do differently that has allowed you to have a better track record? Haven't you developed any unique aspects of your approach to the diligence phase, for example?

Bill Tai: Not really. I think it has less to do with the diligence phase of a prospective company for me than it does the ability to build companies from an early stage platform on a go forward basis. I work with my teams to adapt to changes. My average starting team for many years has been three people. I would much prefer any three smart people and a couple of million bucks than an existing business that had so much momentum behind it that " if it's right you're right" but if you're wrong you can't change it. If you've got a very nimble starting team that you can help guide, it's easier to keep something alive through a lot of change until you find a point of traction.

Angel Mehta: So in how many cases does the plan you started with end up being the plan you follow through on?

Bill Tai: Almost never. Looking back at my portfolio I'd say that probably less than 10% of the companies that I worked with ended up doing EXACTLY what they started out to do. I'd say that a 100% of the companies that I worked with failed to do EXACTLY what they set out to do. They were just wrong from the get-go and they were inflexible when they needed to change. I think if I have any advice for entrepreneurs starting out, it is that you've got to learn to be flexible because times change, things change, and everything is always changing. The fact that things will change is the only constant that you know will not change.

(the bold type is mine).

Anyways, the point is; a) You can't ever correctly guess demand. You have to go out and research it and b) It's not what you start doing which is what matters - it's your trajectory of improvement which is what's going to determine what business you will ultimately end up running.

So as not to make things confusing, these trajectories of improvement are a separate point, but what you need to remember is that if you start messing around with poker tables in your twenties, by your thirties- I promise you'll be having nothing to do with chips and felt table tops - rather you are gonna have some high tech casino security empire on your hands, or you're gonna be like Donald Trump.

Like I said before, do the primary research....don't play on hunches.....that's what's primary research is for...it's designed to tell you what to do, in as much as it will tell you what not to do.

[haydn]

I didnt mean to sound so harsh, but i play quite often; mostly home games and occasionally at the casino and I honestly find absolutly no use for a chip counter at either places.

[jdgrimm]

i hear you. I dont mind if anyone is harsh..its what this place is for. I was originially thinking about the home user, not the big casinos. I guess with all the ppl i play with typically you have some idea of your chip count, well maybe not count, but where you stand compared to others. I think with how hot the poker market is, there are many guys out there that are just amateurs and would like some like this. but to reiterate what akula said, that is just my assumption...which doesnt mean jack.

[CP Mr Ofevaw]

A company just went public with poker tables that incorporate computers. At each seat of the poker table, a computer display is present. You then play poker as if you were playing online - there is no interaction with the other players, even though they are sitting just a few feet away. The companies target is casinos, and the price of the table is $6,000. Advantages is that the casino doesn't need a dealer. The disadvantage is that it's like online poker - if people wanted to play online poker, they would have stayed home.

I don't really like the idea, but the company did go public with an IPO on NASDAQ (and only 15 employees with NO sales), and raised $75M. Stock symbol is PTEK.

Yep, anything is possible.

[GriZzly]

And it is vulnerable to tampering. And even when it isn't being tamperered with, players that lose will no doubt claim they are being cheated.

[joshw]

This is a stupid idea, if you dont know how to count how many chips u have in front of you, you shouldnt be playing poker in the first place. Most players have a pretty good idea of their chip count.

One thing I've learned over the years.......your idea doesn't have to be smart, or even good, to make you a fortune. For example, someone invented a lolli-pop holder that spins your lolli-pop for you at the push of the button(since spinning your lolli-pop manually is so incredibly strenuous). The person that invented these asinine little items is now a multimillionaire. Implementation of your idea is the key. While I agree that, practically, your electronic poker table idea seems to be pretty lame and that no poker player would be that lazy, I think that you would make a good bit of money if you roll out your product in a timely manner. You may have already been beaten to the punch with the aforementioned electronic poker table. Anyhow, that's my 2 cents (though it's probably worth merely a peso or two). Good luck!

[bjgomer13]

You are definitely on the right track with your thinking with this product but I think it may need some tweaking. . I owned a poker/casino supply business for two years. Also, I play a lot of poker and i agree that this product could do good in a home game evironment but with experienced players (i.e. casinos, card rooms, etc) this product would be a huge no-no. I'm by no means a pro but i play enough and know enough pros to know that knowing how much money is in the pot is a players responsibility, not the dealers. Most no-limit cash games in vegas are not allowed to tell you how much is in a pot. And at that level of poker, even asking how much is in the pot is......very damning to yourself. So you can see why experienced poker players would adamently oppose your idea; they are experienced enough to always know how much is in the pot and when newbies, or fish ask "how much is in the pot?" they are giving information (whether intentional or unintentional) which is something that good poker players LOVE. The more information they get from you the better.

So this brings the question; Why would experienced players want to use a product that decreases the amount of information they could attain about their opponents hand?