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Old 02-02-2007, 10:51 PM   #16 (permalink)
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quiteshirty, I'm seriously considering signing up to your fan club. you seem really smart and articulate, not to mention that you have a personality.

let's have a look at some of your options. because of the time constraint, your best bet is to get some trade credit.

what are your thoughts on trade credit?
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Old 02-03-2007, 04:03 AM   #17 (permalink)
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basically, i my aim is to start up without any debt. i hate the idea of it. i dont mind taking risks, by losing all the money i have got, as i can always start something new, and get it back, but i dont want to lose someone elses money and still need to get it back.

trade credit does sound like a good idea though, so i should try and find a website developer who provides it?
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Old 02-03-2007, 05:52 AM   #18 (permalink)
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ok...let me give you some feedback

I'm a lawyer by training so I've gone through all these problems you're going through with recruiting web developers

1. web development has heavy lock in. if you're getting someone to make a site for you, this person has to become part of the team and stay on payroll. this means that you knocking up 3k in cash to get a beta out, is out of the question. with web developers, you either have a budget to pay the developer fees for up to 3 years, or you recruit them to the team and pay with non cash remuneration.

2. web development is done in stages. once you get a developer to help you release a beta, the guy's gotta stay on to do v1.0, v2.0 and so on.

Bottom line is this: the 3k you're being quoted is just the minimum price of getting a beta site launched. it's gonna suck. it's gonna have bugs. your customers are gonna hate it. that's why you need developers to fix the bugs and upgrade features with releases v1.0, v2.0 and so on.

listen very carefully. what you don't want is getting some guy to set up a site for you, only to figure that you don't have enough money to maintain the project. if this happens, you're just gonna have some crappy ass bit of html hanging in cyberspace and you can basically consider all your money and effort wasted.

now...with points one and two in mind, how much do you think it's gonna cost you to get to v2.0 release within the next 12 months? it's gonna be more than 3k isn't it?
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Old 02-03-2007, 06:39 AM   #19 (permalink)
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some really good points. and deffinately something i need to talk to the web developer about, what kind of service they offer for the future, and at what cost.

now im thinking, its going to be £3500 up front, £500 a month to advertise, and then after 6, or 12 months, another £5000 to redo it.

in the first year, that means a total of £14,500. (im going to say £15,000 to account for any errors)

and that is alot of money.

that means earning £40 a day (£1200 a month) from the website, just to break even during the first year. (im being generous in my sums, just incase!)

its possible. Difficult, but possible.

so would selling a share in my business for start up funds be a better idea?
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Old 02-03-2007, 08:31 AM   #20 (permalink)
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ok, good

firstly, let me assure you that if you stick to this thread and do everything that I tell you, then you are gonna be fine.

secondly, I'm glad that you are willing to explore a whole range of financing alternatives, such as debt and equity finance (i.e. selling a share in my business)....however, the next step is for you to realize that debt and equity are inappropriate instruments for you to finance your venture, and then you will need to listen and accept what is an appropriate way to finance your venture (I've yet to cover this point).

Hence, the point of this post is for you to understand the term appropriate finance, which is defined as finance that fits one's risk profile.

1) Underfunding: The first financing problem that you've noticed is called "underfunding". When people book a trip to Thailand, they always make sure they've got enough money to survive on once they get to Bangkok, because it is very painful to get off a plane and find that you only have $1 in your pocket left to finance 3 weeks of vacation.

With startups, however, people make this mistake all the time - as you were about to do before you did the right thing and got a second opinion. Internet startups cost a lot of money. Programming the beta release of a website is just a very small percentage of what's needed to finance the whole journey.

2) Risk management: The biggest amount of money that's needed is one that's used to make up for mistakes. What happens if customers hate the beta release of the website and it has to get completely overhauled? What happens if the initial marketing campaign fails and there's a need for a second marketing campaign (which might also fail)?

For all of these contingencies, there's gotta be finance to make up for unforeseen setbacks. If the money is not available, then the venture can only sustain one or two blows. If likened to a prize fighter, a venture that get knocked on her ass in the first round after a couple of blows, is not strong enough to compete and battle on for the duration of 12 rounds. An entrepreneur has to start well toned ventures that can take many hits before going down.

How to manage risk: With some ventures (i.e. "build first, sell second" .coms) a lot of things can, will and do go wrong. It's called the sales learning curve. Other ventures, are less risky. Very little can go wrong when my neighbor asks me to mow his lawn. It's a venture with a short (as opposed to long) sales learning curve. A very important skill is one of correctly choosing the degree of riskiness that's acceptable for any particular entrepreneur. This is usually done very poorly. The way to manage risk is to make appropriate opportunity selection decisions.

Example: If I have very limited driving experience, it would be suicidal for me to race at Indie 500. Being rational, I can identify that Indie 500 is an unsuitable competition for me to get involved with because it doesn't match with my risk capacity. I'm not skilled, or financed well enough to take such chances. However, entrepreneurs almost always mismatch the kinds of opportunities they get them selves into, with their capacity for risk taking. Hence, we have 90% failure rates for small business.

Important point: As such, because I'm a bad driver, the optimum decision for me is to race my friends down the road on my scooter, as opposed to competing in the Indie. With my friends, I can WIN. With a more prestigious race, I'll LOSE. Since startups are not a popularity contest, it's much better for me to engage in things where I can win, as opposed to things where I'll probably lose. The most important skill for an entrepreneur is to select ventures where they are most likely to succeed, as opposed to ventures where other people are more likely to succeed.

Now....from your perspective; being a new entrant, not having adequate net worth to cover the sales learning curve, are you going to persist with starting a venture that has a long sales learning curve (i.e. a lot of things can go wrong), or will you try to shorten the sales curve and go for ventures with less uncertainty?

If you select correctly, and choose a venture that matches your risk profile - you won't have financing difficulties. If you choose poorly, you won't be able to finance your venture, because the kinds of finance it requires (i.e. equity finance) is not accessible to you, me, or anyone else with an inappropriate risk profile (i.e. lack of track record etc..)


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Originally Posted by quiteshirty.com
some really good points. and deffinately something i need to talk to the web developer about, what kind of service they offer for the future, and at what cost.

now im thinking, its going to be £3500 up front, £500 a month to advertise, and then after 6, or 12 months, another £5000 to redo it.

in the first year, that means a total of £14,500. (im going to say £15,000 to account for any errors)

and that is alot of money.

that means earning £40 a day (£1200 a month) from the website, just to break even during the first year. (im being generous in my sums, just incase!)

its possible. Difficult, but possible.

so would selling a share in my business for start up funds be a better idea?
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Last edited by akula; 02-03-2007 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 02-03-2007, 08:46 AM   #21 (permalink)
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the whole point of me posting on this forum was to learn and make sure i did it the right way at first.

i have set up a few businesses in the past, nothing as big as this tho, however both businesses were to do with t-shirts, and so is this, i am familiar with the market.

thnks to your help i can now add in the risk cost to my sums. i am going to be working with a large sum of money to get this started. i know many people would suggest to just knock off the idea, and think of something new, but i have thought for a long time about this, and dont want to dismiss the idea until i have worked out all the options.

i hope to keep this thread going throughout the development process, so i, and entrepreneurs who can read it in the future can benefit.

so my aim is £15,000. i currently have £1000, (its a start!)

when it is set up, it will bring in some money, but i should aim for £10,000 to have before i begin paying a web developer? this way i can pay for marketing, web development and design (V1.0 and V1.5!) and can account for any mistakes which go wrong.

£9,000 to go, thats about $18,000. :S ouch.
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:33 PM   #22 (permalink)
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anyone got anything they want to add?

thanks
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Old 02-07-2007, 10:36 AM   #23 (permalink)
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i could really do with some more feedback? anyone!

thanks for your help already
joe
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Old 02-07-2007, 02:43 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I think you can find people ready to help you for free, but for some interest, saying 30-50% of the future income.
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Old 02-07-2007, 02:46 PM   #25 (permalink)
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you mean people paying me, for a percentage of the business?
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Old 02-07-2007, 02:50 PM   #26 (permalink)
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