the great recession

[byzantium]

flnazrael, your site shadowstats reminds me of the old joke that 82% of all statistics are made up. The govt has its fake stats, the conspiracists have theirs, and they say opposite things. It's obvious that somebody's lying, but who? Feds, conspiracists, both?

Also, I'm reminded of the 70s, which in some cases of people here was long before they were even born. My father used to have craploads of books from the 70s predicting the end of the American economy to be followed by Russian victory in the cold war and a horrifying totalitarian state in America that would be a Moscow puppet. If this sounds familiar, switch out some of the proper names and you have today's claims. The conspiracists have just dusted off the old claims that the world was ending and adapted them to 2008 instead of 1978. Only now we have the internet and its innumerable anonymous blogging dittoheads all saying the same thing, so people are convinced. Goebbels would have loved the internet, it would be like dying and going to Valhalla.

Today's conspiracists are far more advanced in their propaganda techniques than the feds are. A lot of the real movers behind end of the world stuff are dominionists, people who believe that the US government should be replaced by a "godly nation" built on their interpretation of Levitical law. It turns out that the dominionists were largely responsible for the infamous Y2K scare and the resulting waste of billions for "Y2K compliance". Gary North, the guy who was at the forefront, was a long time friend of Rushdoony, the founder of dominionism. It also seems that most of their hard core following are also radical Christians who can't wait for the world to end so a perfect government of God can replace flawed rule by men.

I assume your handle means "fallen Azrael", aka fallen angel, a Biblical image that is also the way the dominionists describe America-the once righteous nation that embraced Satan due to the fallen nature of man and not following the ways of God. Everybody else, know that radical Christians are behind most of the end of the world talk. They are happily chomping at the bit for a war against Iran in the hope that it will bring about a nuclear war followed by the Final Judgment of God. Indeed, they expected Russia to back Iraq with nukes, thus leading to Armageddon. They are determined to eliminate the fallen, sinful world and replace it with a perfect world overseen by a properly enthroned Jesus and men who have become angels due to being tried in the crucible. This sounds awful strange to much of modern America, but to dominionists the perfect world is a necessity that needs to come ASAP.

Look, this board is not about religion, and I don't want it to become about religion. If somebody wants to argue economic issues without religion, fine. But when "fallen angel" shows up and starts making outrageous claims rooted in the Bible, that is not OK.

[flnazrael]

Originally Posted by tazman9r

On this subject, here is a quote from a New York Times article quoting John McCain at a rally in Ohio.

“By January 2013, America has welcomed home most of the servicemen and women who have sacrificed terribly so that America might be secure in her freedom,’’ Mr. McCain said at the Columbus Convention Center. “The Iraq War has been won. Iraq is a functioning democracy, although still suffering from the lingering effects of decades of tyranny and centuries of sectarian tension. Violence still occurs, but it is spasmodic and much reduced.’’

Get the full story here.

McCain Sees Troops Coming Home by 2013 - The Caucus - Politics - New York Times Blog

This has always been McCain's stance. This opinion comes from looking at the history of post WWII Japan, Germany, and Post war Korea. Oh, and by the way, did you know we were still in Bosnia? No one wants to be reminded about "Clinton's War", and we are still there nearly a decade later.

Partial quotes meant to generate misunderstandings are a major problem. The truth is that we, the general public, only know what we are told. Pick your favorite news source or blog, unless your reading a story of an individual's experience on the ground, you can't trust your not getting a political slant in whatever your news is. If you find news you like to read because it fits your political bent, then go ahead, but don't try preaching that news as gospel because it's probably going to get challenged with opposing articles.

Tazman,

Thanks for your comments.

McCain has been a huge flip flopper on the war.

Hate to resort to a Youtube video, but...sometimes video is the most powerful medium.

YouTube - John McCain's Neverending War

[flnazrael]

Actually, I'm an atheist and former Christian.

The first guy ignored 90% of my post. You ignored 100%, and someone found a way to write a few paragraphs about my username. If you can't dispute the facts, always go with the username.

But I digress.

Two things:

1) There are things existing today that didn't exist in the '70s. Among them, a housing bubble collapse, a massive spike in fuel prices that will stay in place for at least 5-10 years even if immediate action is taken. A lot of economists are calling today's multiple situations a "perfect storm".

2) Interesting articles: Special Issue - Hyperinflation
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/20/we...0A&oref=slogin

What do you think?

P.S. Read the bio under "Some Biographical & Additional Background Information". This guy is a lot more credible than anyone else here - including myself. And he has worked for the feds, so don't go the whole tin foil conspiracy route.

[byzantium]

Originally Posted by flnazrael

Actually, I'm an atheist and former Christian.

The first guy ignored 90% of my post. You ignored 100%, and someone found a way to write a few paragraphs about my username. If you can't dispute the facts, always go with the username.

But I digress.

Two things:

1) There are things existing today that didn't exist in the '70s. Among them, a housing bubble collapse, a massive spike in fuel prices that will stay in place for at least 5-10 years even if immediate action is taken. A lot of economists are calling today's multiple situations a "perfect storm".

2) Interesting articles: Special Issue - Hyperinflation
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/20/we...0A&oref=slogin

What do you think?

P.S. Read the bio under "Some Biographical & Additional Background Information". This guy is a lot more credible than anyone else here - including myself. And he has worked for the feds, so don't go the whole tin foil conspiracy route.

Economics is, in actuality, a "soft" science. People think that because it's based on math, it is as simple as A + B = C. It is not. To paraphrase an old Israeli joke about Middle Eastern politics, three economists will have eight different opinions on the economy.

But let's address this directly. Presuming that all he says is true, I should point out that this isn't a USA problem strictly, but a GLOBAL problem. Gold has been abandoned everywhere in the world. It is likely that in the event of a dollar collapse, that all other money would become worthless too.

Complicating matters is the fact that for the first time in human history, most humans live in cities, in very close quarters. Space to grow food is virtually nonexistent for most of these people. American suburbia is somewhat better off in this regard, since there is SOME land, albeit not very much, that could be used to grow crops and raise some livestock, especially poultry, which requires less room and which is therefore a meat of choice in poorer parts of the world. Bird meat has the advantage of being tolerated gastronomically by most people, unlike beef and pork. Europe and the third world urban poor are worst off, especially the third worlders. Already, the urban poor of the undeveloped world are starting to die of starvation. It is likely that mass starvation, and then mass cannibalism and blood drinking, would result in this guy's scenario.

The ultimate problem, as I see it, is that there are too many people, and the marginal utility of agriculture has been surpassed. The only way from here is down-WAY down, from 7 billion to 400 MILLION. That's a LOT of death. If you believe in THAT, then the prudent thing to do would be to save yourself while you still can. Buy farmable land way way out in the countryside, dig a well, install solar and wind power, and go back to living as a medieval peasant farmer. I admit that such a life has its appeal, especially for someone like me whose grandfather lived a Ted Kaczsynski-type life in the Sierra Nevada for several years during the Great Depression. He hunted mountain lion and deer, grew a few vegetables, panned for gold to buy what he couldn't grow, hunt, or make (like bullets), and basically lived off the land.

He also did a fair amount of living off the land in the 1950s. He couldn't handle cities, and he didn't get along well with bosses, so he bought two acres of land that nobody wanted and grew crops and raised chickens. I used to chase his chickens around the yard as a little kid in the 1980s. If you want to do that, great, I'd love to do it too. If you're making enough money, then go grab your section of land and pay it off, then live off it. For most people, that's not an option-they are barely staying afloat as it is. If you really believe all this, what do you say to them? Have a nice death?

[BiGWiLL]

There's nothing wrong with living off the land. Where I live you could easily do it.

[byzantium]

Originally Posted by BiGWiLL

There's nothing wrong with living off the land. Where I live you could easily do it.

I'd love to do it too. The problem: too many people, too little land. The British Broadcasting Corporation news service estimated that every human needs 2.2 "global hectares" of land to survive, but there is only 1.8 available. The math doesn't add up. I think that ultimately, this will be humanity's downfall, as arable land disappears and more people try to survive in cities. Eventually, lack of money will be the least of our worries, as global warming destroys the world's farmland and dries up supplies of fresh water.

I think that should the money crisis flnazrael's guru predict come to pass, especially after 2015 or so, that the system wouldn't right itself after some extreme difficulty, but just vanish, leaving too many people to fight over too few resources. The only way to solve the problem is through massive population elimination. In the worst case, literally everybody would die, except for a couple million extremely tough souls. That means you, me, flnazrael, and everybody able to read this would be worm food.

If that happens, then the discussion veers into the academic, as nobody knows what happens after death. Asking whether Hell would be overwhelmed by the sudden influx of new arrivals is like asking how many angels fit on the head of a pin. In my view, death is death, and once you're dead that's it. There is nothing but indirect evidence-vague testimonies-to say otherwise.

Anyway, if one expects to die within 10 years as a result of massive pan-systemic global collapse, then it's pretty much beside the point to start one's own business, since it's all ending. You need to go kill yourself, or go to a mountaintop and await your god. The fact that few people are willing to go to such lengths, even in the face of supposedly overwhelming facts, indicates to me that they really don't believe it. When Korean police raided a doomsday cult that expected the Rapture in 1992, they found that the leader had bought oodles of bonds that would mature in 1995 or later. Obviously, the leader was full of BS, because he expected to be around to enjoy his money.

When I saw that this doomsday economist only lets you pay by credit card or check for his newsletters, I was reminded of that South Korean doomsayer. Indeed, I find that a lot of the economic doomsayers actually sell gold as a "side business"-for way more than spot price of course, payable by credit card. If you have a precious metals retailer like American Precious Metals Exchange that just sells metal without the blabber, that's different. But these guys whip you up into believing that only gold will survive the coming economic meltdown, then go into carnival barker mode, offering gold for a bargain-way above spot of course. I call BS.

I don't know if this particular guru is selling something, or just enjoys the attention he gets, but I hesitate to call him the voice in the wilderness. I think we very well could see 30% inflation over the next decade, like in the 70s (including energy and food), but 1000% inflation? Anything's possible, but so far we haven't run out of oil, no dry gas pumps here.

[gowriter]

Hmm. I do expect a recession to come and perhaps worse. Usually it starts with one thing and trails to another and another and another little by little. The media has a say in it, yes, but it's the people's perception that will be affected.

Keep in mind that here in America when buying power goes down do other things, so i wouldn't recommend a commodity. I would look for something that people will be needing. Lay offs are happening left and right so there go dental plans and health care plans. You know that affiliate programs in insurance are quite profitable. People will consider refinancing their car loans...and most importantly, they will look for other jobs, if not in America...elsewhere like Dubai or in a home business.

With the economy heading south, more people will start to pay attention to making money online: they'll read ebooks about making money online, they'll need computers, they'll need webhost servers, they'll be looking for money-making opportunities that can possible sustain their living or do better.

If you don't believe me, look on social networks like Yuwie and Craigslist. Tons of people needing to pay bills, have been laid off. Sad but true. It seems almost cruel to take advantage of this, but it is a business and oyu are offering a solution to a problem.

So I would think in that realm...look ahead.

[tazman9r]

Originally Posted by flnazrael

Tazman,

Thanks for your comments.

McCain has been a huge flip flopper on the war.

Hate to resort to a Youtube video, but...sometimes video is the most powerful medium.

YouTube - John McCain's Neverending War

Ah, thank you for proving my point. The video was "quite incriminating" of the "flip-flops" of John McCain. Indeed he has supported the war, and the troops throughout, there is no surprise or cover up about this. What is not specified by the video, and what McCain talks about when he gets to elaborate about his criticisms of the war, have to do with the way war was prosecuted, this being directed largely at Donald Rumsfeld.

From December, 2004 -

McCain, Schwarzkopf blast Rumsfeld - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com

This, from February 2007, shows McCain being both polite and not-so-polite

McCain blames Rumsfeld for missteps - John McCain News - MSNBC.com

This one shows the only actual "flip-flop" I have run across so far, based on my understanding of the term "flip-flop" after watching John Kerry crucify himself with opposing positions during his campaign, that being the attempt to rewrite history of one's own words or deeds for political gain. It has to do with McCain's "calling for Rummy's outser", when at least publicly, and the campaign Spokes Person, Brain Rogers, seems to suggest it didn't happen privately either, claims to have only cited his lack of confidence.

McCain's Rewrite of His Anti-Rumsfeld Script | The Trail | washingtonpost.com

Some have said today that McCain did the same "historical re-write" concerning the efficacy of the "surge", citing that the Anbar Awakening began 8 months ahead of the "surge". I think it's interesting that that same people who bring this up were at this time screaming that American troops were "terrorizing Iraqi families in the dark of night" or something. Now, how does a phenomenon like the Anbar Awakening happen, to the benefit of the U.S. mission in Iraq, if American troops are terrorizing the people of Anbar? It doesn't. But since that is something that doesn't play well in the news...

Not attempting to change the subject, I'll get back to McCain, but to further note that we don't often get the full story in the news, what about WMD's? Never mind that a good friend of mine lost his sense of smell when he opened a 55 gallon drum of weapons grade chlorine (that's right, WMD is the acronym for nuclear bomb, it couldn't possibly include anything else). Didn't I just read that some 550 metric tons of yellow cake uranium were removed from Iraq and sent to Canada a few weeks ago? It seems we may be a few unearthed documents away from discovering Hussein's "peaceful energy program".

Iraq's nuclear 'yellowcake' moved to Canada | Philadelphia Inquirer | 07/06/2008

McCain is not my choice in a candidate. Being an aviator and listening to his rhetoric about airport user fees and the like have made me uneasy. He did the same when he and Sen. Kennedy tried to push the border legislation through, a position he says he has learned from as a result of the flood of calls from Americans encouraged by conservative talk radio. This is also one of the so called "flip-flops". My jury, is still out.

On drilling, another accused "flip-flop" he states that he was not in favor of coastal drilling before $4 per gallon gas prices, but he is stubborn in his refusals to drill in ANWR (unless that has changed in the past 5 minutes). That actually sounds plausible to me, and was about 6 weeks ahead of the national polls on the same subject.

Do I think he perfect, far from it. As you have stated, neither is Obama. But I don't think the media and other "critics" are being entirely objective and forthcoming in their analysis of either candidate. You want to know who you voting for, look at their voting record. McCain has one that is 25 years long, Obama has one that is less than one term in the senate. Just pick the one you agree with most.

[andersonlevel1]

oh course selling is always good you just have to land on the right product in the right times with the knowledge experience and will to move it quickly enough i know people where im at that started dollar stores that make a killing

[flnazrael]

byzantium,

Just a few quick thoughts -

1) There seems to be a misconception that I base my opinion on the current course of the US solely on this one website. The fact is that I'd already arrived at the conclusion that unless there is a MAJOR change in domestic, foreign, and fiscal policy, as well as the way that people view the US govt, we are headed for a disastrous economic collapse, long before I'd ever heard of shadowstats. There are a lot of people in the financial sector talking about this.

2) So because he accepts cash, he doesn't believe hyperinflation is coming? Come on. I accept cash, and I believe we're on a very dangerous road. So? Right now, I can still use it. However, I'm also preparing for the future by becoming established in barter exchanges, as well as trying to figure out ways I can use my cash to develop assets with international value (ie., if the dollar tanks, I can still sell these assets for foreign currency that has value).


3) Now to accuse me of being a paranoid conspiracy theorist simply for talking about a likely economic collapse in the US, and then to talk about The End Of The World...

[flnazrael]

Originally Posted by tazman9r

But I don't think the media and other "critics" are being entirely objective and forthcoming in their analysis of either candidate. You want to know who you voting for, look at their voting record. McCain has one that is 25 years long, Obama has one that is less than one term in the senate. Just pick the one you agree with most.

Well, I would certainly agree. Definitely don't think MSM is where people should go to form their opinions of candidates.

Frankly, it absolutely amazes me that Obama is even considered electable, much less that there is a mania over him. He's utterly inexperienced, has ties to Muslim extremists, has ALREADY been involved in questionable financial practices, has ALREADY flip flopped on FISA, and if you look at his comments, he is very hawkish - I think the anti-war vote is going to be very disappointed if/when he takes office.

But of course, this country cares more about how someone looks than their record. Looking at the average member of the electorate, and the mental process they use to determine their leaders, perhaps American extinction would be a good thing.

Anyway - I understand the point about taking things out of context. However, I do not think there is any reconciliation that can be made between many of the statements in that video. None.

McCain says some really disturbing things about the will of the people too - disturbing to me, at least.



Oh, regarding the yellow cake - one of Bush's cronies brought this up at the abuse of power hearing a few days ago - the uranium a) was not weapons grade and b) was well known to the UN and IAEA and was being stored legally by Saddam’s government. It was legally in Iraq according to international law.

If there was any real substance to this story, believe me, the Bush Spin Machine would've pushed the hell out of it. Faux News would've made an entire subsidiary channel dedicated to it.

As much as I wish - after the American lives lost, not to mention the Iraqi lives, and the hundreds of billions of dollars wasted while our country is struggling here at home - I could say that the war served any purpose other than making people in the military-industrial complex rich, I can't. This war was and continues to be a joke.

[BiGWiLL]

The way it sounds. I think we should gather up all of these young entreprenerus. And create a new country because I don't think we would have problems with the economy there.

[tazman9r]

Originally Posted by flnazrael

Well, I would certainly agree. Definitely don't think MSM is where people should go to form their opinions of candidates.

Frankly, it absolutely amazes me that Obama is even considered electable, much less that there is a mania over him. He's utterly inexperienced, has ties to Muslim extremists, has ALREADY been involved in questionable financial practices, has ALREADY flip flopped on FISA, and if you look at his comments, he is very hawkish - I think the anti-war vote is going to be very disappointed if/when he takes office.

Yeah, I think there is way more to Obama than meets the eye. My main complaint months ago when people would begin fawning in this forum about Obama was that I didn't have any idea who he was and what he stood for, and I feel I still don't. I would love for Obama to pick a consistent opinion and hang on to it for at least a day, at least then he'd have a record on something.

Originally Posted by flnazrael

But of course, this country cares more about how someone looks than their record. Looking at the average member of the electorate, and the mental process they use to determine their leaders, perhaps American extinction would be a good thing.

I totally agree with that statement, right up to the whole extinction thing. I prefer to think that social Darwinism will win the day, and America will be left to those who know best how to both appreciate and operate in a country designed to use the concept of self-government.

Originally Posted by flnazrael

Anyway - I understand the point about taking things out of context. However, I do not think there is any reconciliation that can be made between many of the statements in that video. None.

McCain says some really disturbing things about the will of the people too - disturbing to me, at least.

We could certainly spin pages of forum space detaining every gaff and misconception of John McCain. I will certainly agree that there are things he has said that I also find very disturbing. I'll also bet that our comparative list of complaints is probably more similar that one would initially think, though possibly for different reasons.

Originally Posted by flnazrael

Oh, regarding the yellow cake - one of Bush's cronies brought this up at the abuse of power hearing a few days ago - the uranium a) was not weapons grade and b) was well known to the UN and IAEA and was being stored legally by Saddam’s government. It was legally in Iraq according to international law.

If there was any real substance to this story, believe me, the Bush Spin Machine would've pushed the hell out of it. Faux News would've made an entire subsidiary channel dedicated to it.

Yeah, I've read the same, in fact I found at least one story that said this last night when searching for a good reference for my post. The one I used, though it contained comments from readers, was an AP story that had the fewest points regarding conclusions from finding the yellow cake as possible. To me, it is simply important that this event happened, I put very little value on what some reporter or political pundit tells what they "think" it was for, or the legality of Hussein having it. I find often that when something looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck. This is why i said, admittedly in jest, that we were a few unearthed documents from discovering Hussein's peaceful energy program.

Originally Posted by flnazrael

As much as I wish - after the American lives lost, not to mention the Iraqi lives, and the hundreds of billions of dollars wasted while our country is struggling here at home - I could say that the war served any purpose other than making people in the military-industrial complex rich, I can't. This war was and continues to be a joke.

You and I both know that is a rather cheap and stereotypical shot, and I am not suggesting that companies have not profited from this conflict, but if you want some more interesting information, I'd suggest having a read of this -

The Energy Non-Crisis by Lindsey Williams

This is the outline of a verbal presentation. I want to read the book, but you can certainly get enough of the point from reading this. He also does about an hour long presentation online through youtube. He is a Baptist chaplain and a conservative. I recommend taking this information in balance with as much information as you can find, as I recommend doing with any story or situation. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I found what he and others have had to say about this very interesting.

[byzantium]

Originally Posted by tazman9r

You and I both know that is a rather cheap and stereotypical shot, and I am not suggesting that companies have not profited from this conflict, but if you want some more interesting information, I'd suggest having a read of this -

The Energy Non-Crisis by Lindsey Williams

This is the outline of a verbal presentation. I want to read the book, but you can certainly get enough of the point from reading this. He also does about an hour long presentation online through youtube. He is a Baptist chaplain and a conservative. I recommend taking this information in balance with as much information as you can find, as I recommend doing with any story or situation. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I found what he and others have had to say about this very interesting.

I have to agree that there is a whole bunch of behind the scenes energy manipulation going on. Every so often, when energy costs get too low, the order goes out to shut down everything to force prices up. So prices soar, and the economy collapses. Then, just when all hope seems lost, the restrictions miraculously disappear, and so does 40% yearly inflation, and the guys in charge-usually Republicans-look like heroes.

I think Obama is being set up to be a counter-Bush, the same way Carter was the counter-Nixon. The Republicans get so corrupt that people get fed up, so in response the most extreme liberal gets put in, who makes such a mess of things that people literally beg the Republicans to bail them out of the mess, and so starts a new day of conservatism. What's really going on is simply manipulation of markets for the benefit of a well-connected few at the expense of everybody else.

It always seems that when the price goes up, the doomsayers come out of the woodwork and tell us to buy gold, buy oil, hoard it for the coming apocalypse. So the price of gold and oil soars, and people become convinced that the price will go up forever because "the dollar is worthless", so a bubble gets created. By the time the bubble pops, the well-connected few have made yet another fortune off the backs of the many. I really think that the doomsayers are in cahoots with guys like Rockefeller and Rothschild who have massive positions in oil and gold, respectively. They are the useful idiots.

What nobody is telling you is that there is NO "intrinsic value of money". Even gold is only valuable relative to what it will buy. ALL money is in a sense "fiat money", since it only has value relative to something else, usually determined by the people in power. Imagine an agricultural, feudal society without money, like in the dark ages. Barter rules. Suddenly, a new reserve of gold is discovered. But what is it worth? Nobody knows. So the king issues an edict that an ounce of gold will buy a full grown healthy cow. Now that there is a value of gold, people can make fractional use of it based on one cow=1oz of gold.

Later, when the gold reserves start to run low and the society has progressed a little, another king creates a central bank, and the bank issues paper notes bearing the king's face on one side, and the royal palace on the other. As a nod to the prior valuation of gold, this note is called a moola, and the king orders that 50 moola will buy one ounce of gold. Now, instead of being worth one cow, that ounce of gold is worth 50 paper notes called moolas.

The next king has to deal with inflation, so he simply lets the value of gold "float", letting the newly created gold market set the moola value of gold. Thing is, now the royal family, which holds half of all the country's gold, can manipulate the gold market. Gold shoots up to 800 moolas then drops down to 200, then back up. The people don't feel too stable now, since the gold market is going up and down all the time. The king doesn't want to tip his hand lest he end up on the business end of a noose, so he blames "the market" for the problems, instead of the fact that he and his family members are rigging the markets. That in a nutshell is economic history from the discovery of America to today.

[tazman9r]

Originally Posted by byzantium

I have to agree that there is a whole bunch of behind the scenes energy manipulation going on. Every so often, when energy costs get too low, the order goes out to shut down everything to force prices up. So prices soar, and the economy collapses. Then, just when all hope seems lost, the restrictions miraculously disappear, and so does 40% yearly inflation, and the guys in charge-usually Republicans-look like heroes.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm, I will go out on a limb a conclude that you did not actually read the information at the link above. Like I said, not a conspiracy theorist. I believe that if you put enough people in a room who all feel the same way about something, the room will begin to lean one way or the other. If this room is full of heads of companies and governments, then decisions about policy are generated in a kind of vacuum. Those decisions then have to filter down through many levels to get to the broadest base, and along the way as many people who can influence change regarding policy make those changes, and what was originally penned becomes an altogether different document. This has the appearance of conspiracy.

I believe that if the market is free to determine prices for just about anything, then the value of a moola relative to the standard of a precious metal, like gold, or a mineral, like oil, will remain much more stable. It is in the interest of the market for the value of the moola to remain so, or chaos would occur in the market. The problem as I see it is that governments put us on a credit standard and then tampered enough with the market that the value of currency was no longer stable. If we would get away from this debtor mindset we could repair this artificial self inflated and created mess.

As far as "Republican Corruption", they are certainly not alone. The Democrats have had their fair share of all different types of corrupt behavior, but they are largely given a pass because of their rather permissive politics. The truth is that while they are permissive with themselves and each other, they tend to be pretty restrictive with the American citizen, to whom they promise a world of comforts and benefits as "rights" as long as we will give them dominion over our lives.

Here are some examples -

Texas Rainmaker » Another Day, Another Corrupt Democrat

Flopping Aces » Blog Archive » The Corrupt Democrats

Corrupt Democrats in Pennsylvania | 186 k per second

Alcee Hastings corruption scandal - Congresspedia

CNN.com - Affidavit: $90,000 found in congressman's freezer - May 22, 2006

News & Culture in CA | Dianne Feinstein: A Question of Ethics

Feinstein's are the most agreegeous offenses, as far as I am concerned. Not only did she insist on carrying a small pistol while restricting the rights of those of San Fransisco to do the same, but she is behind much of the Department of Defenses allocation of funds to those companies who are "profiting" from the war -

Excerpt from the article above -

As chairperson and ranking member of the Military Construction Appropriations subcommittee (MILCON) from 2001 through the end of 2005, Feinstein supervised the appropriation of billions of dollars a year for specific military construction projects. Two defense contractors whose interests were largely controlled by her husband, financier Richard C. Blum, benefited from decisions made by Feinstein as leader of this powerful subcommittee.

Each year, MILCON's members decide which military construction projects will be funded from a roster proposed by the Department of Defense. Contracts to build these specific projects are subsequently awarded to such major defense contractors as Halliburton, Fluor, Parsons, Louis Berger, URS Corporation and Perini Corporation. From 1997 through the end of 2005, with Feinstein's knowledge, Blum was a majority owner of both URS Corp. and Perini Corp.

Feel free to read the rest for yourself, but facts like these are why I said that calling the war simply a way for the military industrial complex to make money was a cheap and stereotypical shot.

The link I posted weaves a tale of energy constriction at the hands of the federal government. The accompanying video, you can find it at youtube, gives some additional details about trade agreements, and suggests the closest thing to a government string pulling entity, and I bet it is not who you'd think. The questions is this -

Have you an open enough mind to concede the possibility of his conclusions?

Republican and Democrat, Liberal and Conservative, while these are certainly valid arguments about how to live, they may just be conveniently used to distract people.

I hate sounding like this, so I will go back to using as much logic and controlled passion as possible.