So you say you don't need to get an education?

[rogercbryan]

Just like in grade school, universty classes must be taught to the lowest level student in the class. This is more true in state schools than in higher end private schools, but still exists to some extent in all schools. The lowest common denominator effect can be really frustrating to the smarter students who can move at a much faster learning pace. This is frequently the reason for the brightest dropping out of school and starting businesses. They are not being intellectually stimulated and need to be productive.

This is not the case at all... I'm not sure where you are getting your info but it is obviously not from attending university. You may be basing this on grades which is something that I have never mentioned in any post I've ever made. I could care less if you got an A or a C in a class as long as you attended and got something out of it.

Another reason college can be a waste of time is that formal education trains you to be a worker, not a creator. Entrepreneurial training seems to be on the rise and hopefully it makes great improvements, but mostly, schools don't teach you to create. They teach you how to get a job. They also don't really teach money management. It is rare that you ever get a truely great financial education which is significantly lacking from kindergarten through a master's degree. Universities just don't teach financial intelligence. Of course you can get an education in corporate finance, but I am talking about entrepreneurial and personal finance. Every entrepreneur regardless of field, needs to understand how to manage his and his company's finances.

So I guess all the schools that offer undergraduate and masters in Entrepreneurial Business are not training anyone to create? Hmmm.....

And probably my biggest pet peeve with a university education is in most cases, the teachers are teachers for a reason. Because they aren't producers. How can you expect someone who makes $80k/yr with a mortgage, car payment and credit card debt to teach you how to be a successful entrepreneur. Sure there are exceptions to this rule, but exceptions nonetheless. Would you hire a financial planner who was broke? Would you hire a tennis coach who has never won a match? Would you hire a fat personal trainer? Of course not. So why would you "hire" a teacher to teach something in which he/she has no record of personal success?

'Those who can do, those who can't teach'. This is a prevailing mantra that is true in many schools. The thing that sets the top business schools apart is that you have instructors who have done what they teach. A 19 year old in most (80/20) cases does not have the basic understanding of finances and management that are needed to grow a company. If they can learn the basics from someone they will be better off then the person who has no training in these fundamentals.

There are benefits to a formal education however. But you must understand the university perspective here. If you can make practical use of the knowledge you gain or improve your critical thinking skills along with leveraging connections then it can be a benefit. But an average college degree now costs at least $20k/year from a state school. If you have the money to spend, you could invest it and be well ahead of your college buddies at their graduation. If you are taking loans to pay for it, you will at least be at 0 and they will be at -$80k at graduation. But in order for this to have any benefit, you will need to educate yourself. But it needn't be in the university.

This is a simple statement that goes along way. My argument has always been that there are more benefits in going then there are from not going.

Your 'math' misses one simple idea - There is a difference in 'investing' and 'smart investing'... Just like there is a difference in running a business and running a smart business...

[rogercbryan]

Another reason, my reason, is that I do not want to take a bunch of 'genera' classes (ie: eng 101) when that has nothing to do with my goals.

I've never been to college and I own a part of a pretty decent sized company. Our gross sales are upwards of $800k-1mil. annually.

You won't need the skills taught in those 'general' classes until you need them. And guess what... when they are needed you won't have them. Cross your figures and hope your business doesn't grow enough to need general skills.

[rogercbryan]

Nobody says this, they say you dont need a "formal"' education.

I thought I would take a different approach to an old conversation. There are a ton of posts on here about whether or not you need a formal eduction. There are a great many points of view that can be taken in this conversation. What I'd like to do is to come up with a list of the top 10 reasons you do not need a formal education. I am talking about attending university or college.

When you apply practical statistics:

Sources:
WikiAnswers - Average salary of a college graduate versus a high school
College Vs. No College - Forbes.com



This plays right into what people say about college creating employees when a entrepreneur never intends on becomming an employee.



I get the point you are trying to make, but the number of large publicly traded companies is small compared to the number of privately owned businesses who dont provide any data as to whether or not the founder went to college



Only if an individual finds it advantageous by applying yourself while in school, making connections, etc. Otherwise it's a waste of time. What you dont seem to realize, and perhaps you may be the exception to the rule which is why you're so adament about the subject, is that most college kids are having mommy and daddy pay for school, dont apply themselves, and are simply procrastinating life. For the vast majority of these people a degree is a worthless piece of paper.



Only in specialized areas, i.e. finance, accounting, engineering, etc.



No, banks are asset based lenders and the VC arena is who you know and whether or not you've had successful ventures in the past.



To the person applying themselves, yes. To the average student, probably not.

I know you want a list and I'm not going to make one up. What I do want to know is why this is such a sensitive issue for you?

Disclamer: MBA, BA Markekting / Applied Finance and Economics.

I appreciate someone with an education playing both sides. I don't understand why people want to differentiate an 'education' vs. a 'formal education'. Why do people want to separate the two at all. We can all agree that all education is beneficial. Where we get it is based on opportunity. The person who dives into a family business and has access to direct training that is not available anywhere else is getting 'formal training' in that skill. Call it the family university. Most people 99.95% (my opinion) are not in that situation so why not go to school and learn something?

The best entrepreneurs were at one time an employee. Understanding all elements of business is advantageous to growth.

[rogercbryan]

For those of you that do not know me maybe a little background will help you to understand my point of view. I did not finish high school and then go straight to college.

Age 17 - Enlisted in Marines
Age 21 - Finished tour
*Did a little college while in the Marines and earned a AA in Electrical Engineering from the Navy
Age 22 - Went to community college while working part time at an auction
Age 24 - Transfered to a 4 year university after completing general studies at CC
* Worked full time 50-60 hours a week and went to school at night and on the weekends
Age 26 - Graduated with a BS in Business Management with a minor in Industrial Management
Age 22 to 27 worked for same auto auction. Started as an Data Entry Clerk and left as the General Manager (55 employees $25M+ in annual sales).
27 - Moved to DC and took job as National Sales Director for a regional Auto Auction Company
28- Opened an Auction in Chicago that failed six months later.
28/29 - Quit my job with auction company and started my own company
31 - (Today) own 5 companies 2 of which have $1M in annual sales, another 2 have $100-$500K in sales, and the last is 2 1/2 years old and is still getting off the ground.

I own a consulting company that specializes in non-profit fundraising, a book store, a domestic shipping company, a vehicle brokerage company, and an online services site. As you can see this is a wide variety of companies... Where did I get these skills? 80% life experience... 20% college... What makes me different the the other 80% of entrepreneur out there? The success of my companies based on the 20% of skills...

All opinion... but based on factual experience... I wasn't a spoiled snot who had mommy and daddy pay my way through school... I've done this with out a penny from anyone. Do you think I may be anniment about defending my choices?

[GlobalWealth]

This is not the case at all... I'm not sure where you are getting your info but it is obviously not from attending university. You may be basing this on grades which is something that I have never mentioned in any post I've ever made. I could care less if you got an A or a C in a class as long as you attended and got something out of it.

Actually, I am basing this off of my university experience. I remember once in a supply chain management class, a girl raising her hand and asking how to calculate "mean" again. And this class required micro and macro economics and business statistics as a prerequisite. The teacher then took another 10-15 minuts (out of a 50 minute lecture) to explain how to calculate "mean". And this is not an isolated incident. I had similar situations in nearly every class. *of course I was probably the lowest common denominator in some classes*. But this is a very common problem in both grade school and university. I deal with these similar situations with both of my grade school age kids on a daily basis.

So I guess all the schools that offer undergraduate and masters in Entrepreneurial Business are not training anyone to create? Hmmm......

As I stated, entrepreneurial programs are growing and hopefully they will improve. I have spoke to entrepreneurial classes before as a guest, and the teachers are not usually "true" entrepreneurs. They are "corporate entrepreneurs" or consultants. There are a few however and if I were looking for these classes, I would seek out a teacher with real world experience.

'Those who can do, those who can't teach'. This is a prevailing mantra that is true in many schools. The thing that sets the top business schools apart is that you have instructors who have done what they teach. A 19 year old in most (80/20) cases does not have the basic understanding of finances and management that are needed to grow a company. If they can learn the basics from someone they will be better off then the person who has no training in these fundamentals.

At top schools (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIT, Duke, etc), this is more frequently the case, but still not always. The university system works in such a way that in order to get a high paying (relatively speaking) job, you must get a PhD which requires years of study and teaching. Many times these teachers never leave the university system except only to do consulting work or practical research on the side. While this is real world experience, very, very few teachers have experience with a start up.

Of course the average 19 year old does not have the financial intelligence, but the university is not always the best place to get it. For example, he/she could read "the intelligent investor" by ben graham and get more info from that (if used in a practical way) than they ever would from most courses in school. Finance 101 can give a fundamental understanding, but again, you are being taught finance from someone who likely cannot manage his/her own finances. The student just needs to be aware of the source.

This is a simple statement that goes along way. My argument has always been that there are more benefits in going then there are from not going.

I have never argued that a formal education is not a benefit. The student just needs to aware of the perspective of the teacher and make sure to make the best practical use of the education. The argument from your other post was that it is not 100% required as you stated. There is just too much evidence to prove otherwise.

Your 'math' misses one simple idea - There is a difference in 'investing' and 'smart investing'... Just like there is a difference in running a business and running a smart business...

My "math" actually missed nothing. Reread my post. I stated that in order for the investment of tuition to have any benefit, you will need to educate yourself. That is how you learn to make the "smart investments". That needn't be in a university. The education can come from work experience, reading, mentors, or other resources, but not necessarily from the university.

[Desert_Star_Systems]

You won't need the skills taught in those 'general' classes until you need them. Any guess what... when they are needed you won't have them. Cross your figures and hope your business doesn't grow enough to need general skills.

What do you think is valuable in English 101 that I could not have picked up in the past twelve years of English classes?

Also, at what "growth" level do you think these general skills that I have not learned will come into play?


In my opinion, English 101 is just a repeat of high school English.

[MarvinEason]

For those of you that do not know me maybe a little background will help you to understand my point of view. I did not finish high school and then go straight to college.

Age 17 - Enlisted in Marines
Age 21 - Finished tour
*Did a little college while in the Marines and earned a AA in Electrical Engineering from the Navy
Age 22 - Went to community college while working part time at an auction
Age 24 - Transfered to a 4 year university after completing general studies at CC
* Worked full time 50-60 hours a week and went to school at night and on the weekends
Age 26 - Graduated with a BS in Business Management with a minor in Industrial Management
Age 22 to 27 worked for same auto auction. Started as an Data Entry Clerk and left as the General Manager (55 employees $25M+ in annual sales).
27 - Moved to DC and took job as National Sales Director for a regional Auto Auction Company
28- Opened an Auction in Chicago that failed six months later.
28/29 - Quit my job with auction company and started my own company
31 - (Today) own 5 companies 2 of which have $1M in annual sales, another 2 have $100-$500K in sales, and the last is 2 1/2 years old and is still getting off the ground.

I own a consulting company that specializes in non-profit fundraising, a book store, a domestic shipping company, a vehicle brokerage company, and an online services site. As you can see this is a wide variety of companies... Where did I get these skills? 80% life experience... 20% college... What makes me different the the other 80% of entrepreneur out there? The success of my companies based on the 20% of skills...

All opinion... but based on factual experience... I wasn't a spoiled snot who had mommy and daddy pay my way through school... I've done this with out a penny from anyone. Do you think I may be anniment about defending my choices?

I am new to the site but I like your attitude. I will learn a lot from you. I too am from Ohio, went into the military when I was 19, got out in 2002. Had a few life hiccups over the past 7 years but just now getting back on track. I want to start my own business, had a few ideas but never acted on them.

I am current in college and I think you SHOULD go, but I think the best direction to financial freedom and living life on your own terms is to be a business owner, or have a set of marketable skills that you can profit from.

It's funny our parallels, as I too just moved from the DC area, was there from 98-08.

[pboychuk]

I think the fact of the matter is, if you had two identical people, raised exactly the same, one goes to college one doesn't, of those who became a millionaire taking one route, would also become a millionaire via the other route. I am in my 3 1/2 year of college, before my "downfall" (deciding i didn't need a degree and taking 6 hours a semester) I was pre-med, I am in the honors program at UGA, which is almost ivy league, My GPA after 2 years was ~3.9. I was going to go to medical school, become a doctor and consequently become a millionaire. However, I am just taking a different path, but I am still the same ambitious, logical and determined person.

Just as you take it personally, I take it personally, because I think the argument is trying to limit my abilities.

Also, to further back my point, college does not prepare anyone to become a millionaire, you learn the same stuff that was taught 25 years ago, 75% of it will probably be forgotten by the time you graduate. You take your degree to a company who will re-teach you everything you need to know for the job. As you mentioned, on the job training which is a result of having a college degree can be beneficial. BUT, if employers werent allowed to ask if applicants went to college or not, than I think the outcome of salary statistics would be very similar between the two groups.

[Nigami Enterprise]

Ok I will keep this back on topic and give you my personal reasons. This subject always comes up and I feel it always depends on the individual and everyone is different, and you can never say if a degree will help someone be more successful then others, these are a few of my reasons.

To begin with I felt that there was no course that suited my needs.
90% of what I would of been taught would be in practical to my situation.
Better networking possibilities working in the industry that I wanted to be in. I wanted to socialise with people who were already successful.
I did not want to be a part of thousands of other people doing the same thing I always like to think outside the square and do things differently.
But the biggest reason was the time it would take for return on investment.

some quick maths shows that someone without a degree is financially better off for at least 10 years and then obviously the degree comes into action and you start getting the dollars.

Let’s just say while getting your degree you aren’t working and study full time for 4 years.

No Degree Degree
$30,400 $0
$30,400 $0
$30,400 $0
$30,400 $0
$30,400 $50,200
$30,400 $50,200
$30,400 $50,200
$30,400 $50,200
$30,400 $50,200
$30,400 $50,200 Minus $50,200 college fee =

$304000 $251,000


Should everyone drop out of college of course not some people need the structured up bringing and the helping hand to make themselves more successful.
This is just how I looked at it when I had to make the decision. I would rather take a risk at becoming an entrepreneur then earning an extra 20k a year

[zmonique2007]

These are my Top 4 List of Reasons why an individual not to go to College
1. no money to support his/her education
2. laziness
3. want to work and earn money at an early age
4. early marriage

[rogercbryan]

No Degree Degree
$30,400 $0
$30,400 $0
$30,400 $0
$30,400 $0
$30,400 $50,200
$30,400 $50,200
$30,400 $50,200
$30,400 $50,200
$30,400 $50,200
$30,400 $50,200 Minus $50,200 college fee =

$304000 $251,000

Terrible example... Do it for 5 more years... Or for 20 more years... Such short term thinking is why people drop out of college... Do you need your education today.. maybe not... can anyone look past today to 1..2..5..10 years down the road... 95% of you that decide not to go to college will regret it in the next five years...

By the way...

5 years later You'll have $99,000 more
20 years later you'll have $396,000 more (That would buy a pretty nice house!)
*This is also considering that you do not get any raises in the next 20 years..

Short term thinking is one of the main reasons people pass up college.

[rogercbryan]

I think the fact of the matter is, if you had two identical people, raised exactly the same, one goes to college one doesn't, of those who became a millionaire taking one route, would also become a millionaire via the other route. I am in my 3 1/2 year of college, before my "downfall" (deciding i didn't need a degree and taking 6 hours a semester) I was pre-med, I am in the honors program at UGA, which is almost ivy league, My GPA after 2 years was ~3.9. I was going to go to medical school, become a doctor and consequently become a millionaire. However, I am just taking a different path, but I am still the same ambitious, logical and determined person.

Just as you take it personally, I take it personally, because I think the argument is trying to limit my abilities.

Also, to further back my point, college does not prepare anyone to become a millionaire, you learn the same stuff that was taught 25 years ago, 75% of it will probably be forgotten by the time you graduate. You take your degree to a company who will re-teach you everything you need to know for the job. As you mentioned, on the job training which is a result of having a college degree can be beneficial. BUT, if employers werent allowed to ask if applicants went to college or not, than I think the outcome of salary statistics would be very similar between the two groups.

You make a good point.. you chose the wrong major is what I get from what you say. You sound like an educated and determined person. What if you had gone to school for business or more specifically entrepreneurship.. You probably would have loved it!

I agree that 75% of it will be forgotten but the 25% will give you an advantage over the next person who doesn't have those skills. I don't think it was until I reached 10 employees that I started to think about my old management classes. It wasn't until my annual budget for advertising went over $500,000 that I pulled out my old marketing text book, it wasn't until I started doing business in Europe that I started using lessons learned from International Business and Marketing Classes...

I would have hated trying to learn all these skills on my own... These skills that had been put on a shelf in my mind from years ago that I never thought I'd need.

Still thinking short term... still thinking how an education will effect me today... not thinking 5-10-20 years down the road....

[rogercbryan]

I am new to the site but I like your attitude. I will learn a lot from you. I too am from Ohio, went into the military when I was 19, got out in 2002. Had a few life hiccups over the past 7 years but just now getting back on track. I want to start my own business, had a few ideas but never acted on them.

I am current in college and I think you SHOULD go, but I think the best direction to financial freedom and living life on your own terms is to be a business owner, or have a set of marketable skills that you can profit from.

It's funny our parallels, as I too just moved from the DC area, was there from 98-08.

Where are you going to school? What part of Ohio are you from?

[Gaulkin]

I wouldn't give up the time i have now doing anything i want for the world, college life is great.

[Desert_Star_Systems]

I would have hated trying to learn all these skills on my own...

What you may have hated, others may enjoy!