how to patent before design? and China

**aliendropper** · 01-25-2010 11:23 AM

I was wondering how to patent before design of a product and also will this patent cover from China factories making it themselves?

**rogercbryan** · 01-25-2010 11:51 AM

You can't do that... You can only patent a thing not an idea. You would have to complete the design process before applying for a patent or you will not get one. Patents cost $10,000+ to get so you'll need someone money in the bank. Also, patents do not protect you from other people stealing your idea. They simply give you legal recourse if someone steals it. You'll have to have the money to defend yourself in that case. No money equals no defense.

I'am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

**aliendropper** · 01-25-2010 12:08 PM

This is a catch 22 right?

You got an idea but need a design so if in China they could steal it stalling you?

Originally Posted by rogercbryan

You can't do that... You can only patent a thing not an idea. You would have to complete the design process before applying for a patent or you will not get one. Patents cost $10,000+ to get so you'll need someone money in the bank. Also, patents do not protect you from other people stealing your idea. They simply give you legal recourse if someone steals it. You'll have to have the money to defend yourself in that case. No money equals no defense.

I'am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

**rogercbryan** · 01-25-2010 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by aliendropper

This is a catch 22 right?

You got an idea but need a design so if in China they could steal it stalling you?

It's not a catch 22.. it makes perfect sense. If you haven't designed the item then you have nothing to patent. You have to have a real product whether it be on paper (schematics) or you have to have the actual prototype built. This is common sense not a catch 22.

**DerekS** · 01-25-2010 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by aliendropper

I was wondering how to patent before design of a product and also will this patent cover from China factories making it themselves?

Are you concerned that Chinese manufacturing magnates are sending spies on reconnaissance missions to your workshop to steal your ideas?

**ron komorowski** · 01-29-2010 11:09 AM

This information is so far from the truth. There are 3 types of patents. Utility, design and plant patents.

Utility patents are most expensive to draft costing about $10,000 if you are a corporation but $7500 (and less because of economy) if you are an independent inventor and that is if you pay for a patent attorney.

Me, I have a patent agent and it costs me about $3500 to draft a patent plus about $500 USPTO filing fees.

A design patent CAN protect a design of something and the easiest,clearest, classic example is you can patent the design of a doll's face like Cabbage Patch Dolls.

A design patent lasts 14 years, 3 years less than a utility, basically and costs much less to draft as it is MUCH simpler. A design patent should run around $1500 to draft. A design patent is not as strong as a utility but can be much better than nothing at the least.

You DO NOT NEED riches to protect your patent. You learn this by spending time in the field. If there is infringement you can find a patent lawyer to sue on contingency. A friend of mine used a divorce lawyer even, and was awarded over 1 million and future royalties.

Also, a good percentage of cases, maybe half never go to a full all out court case, instead offers are made by the parties after what is called the "Marksmans Hearings" This is the judges interpretation of the claims of the patent. After this time the parties have a pretty good idea which way the decision will go.

To get to this point isn't that expensive but if a counter suit is filed against the plaintiff (which is usually done) then that can be costly but that is rare.

The best option for the "small" guy is to get a big company to pay the suing expenses and offer them a licensing deal after they win but you want to do this only in special situations well thought out if there is a company that fits for this tactic.

Lots to it. There is a great variance in how much a patent costs. You can hire someone to draft the patent according to what you can afford. I saw one patent professional offering the job for $1500 (Utility) a few years ago.

Last, the small guy certainly can defend himself against the big company infringing. My patent agent thinks the best thing that could happen is if a big company infringes, but we have a few good lawyers to work on contingency.

Ron Komorowski
Inventor of Handi-Straps
Handi Straps Lifting System Home

**aliendropper** · 01-31-2010 02:51 AM

Make them sign a Confidential agreement then to make and prototype?

Then next thing is contact potential suppliers?
Anyone heard of these by the way are they good or bad?
lambertinvent

**ar887** · 01-31-2010 03:40 PM

i agree dont listen to them ...you dont have to patent your object first lol that doesnt even make sense contact me if you want more info on inventions and inveting

**rogercbryan** · 02-01-2010 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by ar887

i agree dont listen to them ...you dont have to patent your object first lol that doesnt even make sense contact me if you want more info on inventions and inveting

You're right you do not need one. I never said you did... Unless you plan on producing the item, marketing, and distributing it yourself there is no need for one as they offer very little protection to begin with. All one needs to do to legally get around a patent is to change a fraction of the design and then patent their idea as a new one. It happens all the time an in most cases the little guy looses.

**rogercbryan** · 02-01-2010 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by aliendropper

Make them sign a Confidential agreement then to make and prototype?

Then next thing is contact potential suppliers?
Anyone heard of these by the way are they good or bad?
lambertinvent

Confidentially agreements are again only worth the money you are willing to spend on them. You need to move your 'idea' to the product stage. Then you'll have something to worry about. I would recommend that you use a local US Based firm to do your initial design. You are a lot less likely to have your idea 'stolen' from a US Firm. There is no need to go to China for your first production run.

**rogercbryan** · 02-01-2010 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by ron komorowski

This information is so far from the truth. There are 3 types of patents. Utility, design and plant patents.

Utility patents are most expensive to draft costing about $10,000 if you are a corporation but $7500 (and less because of economy) if you are an independent inventor and that is if you pay for a patent attorney.

Me, I have a patent agent and it costs me about $3500 to draft a patent plus about $500 USPTO filing fees.

A design patent CAN protect a design of something and the easiest,clearest, classic example is you can patent the design of a doll's face like Cabbage Patch Dolls.

A design patent lasts 14 years, 3 years less than a utility, basically and costs much less to draft as it is MUCH simpler. A design patent should run around $1500 to draft. A design patent is not as strong as a utility but can be much better than nothing at the least.

You DO NOT NEED riches to protect your patent. You learn this by spending time in the field. If there is infringement you can find a patent lawyer to sue on contingency. A friend of mine used a divorce lawyer even, and was awarded over 1 million and future royalties.

Also, a good percentage of cases, maybe half never go to a full all out court case, instead offers are made by the parties after what is called the "Marksmans Hearings" This is the judges interpretation of the claims of the patent. After this time the parties have a pretty good idea which way the decision will go.

To get to this point isn't that expensive but if a counter suit is filed against the plaintiff (which is usually done) then that can be costly but that is rare.

The best option for the "small" guy is to get a big company to pay the suing expenses and offer them a licensing deal after they win but you want to do this only in special situations well thought out if there is a company that fits for this tactic.

Lots to it. There is a great variance in how much a patent costs. You can hire someone to draft the patent according to what you can afford. I saw one patent professional offering the job for $1500 (Utility) a few years ago.

Last, the small guy certainly can defend himself against the big company infringing. My patent agent thinks the best thing that could happen is if a big company infringes, but we have a few good lawyers to work on contingency.

Ron Komorowski
Inventor of Handi-Straps
Handi Straps Lifting System Home

I think this is bad advice for a young entrepreneur. My reasoning is that it is not that simple. Putting an inexperienced person in a position to have to find legal representation on a contingency basis. This is not a simple process. The poster needs to understand that having a patent will not protect him/her from the legalities of defending their idea. Most people think that as long as they have a patent that are completely safe while that is further from the truth. Having a patent actually makes you a target because now you idea is public and anyone can look at it and try to compete against it.

You also did not completely read the original post. The poster did not ask about getting a patent for a design. He sounds like he only has an idea which in fact is not something you can get a patent on. As my post said you can get a patent on schematics showing the design of your idea but you can not simply patent an idea.

It is always welcomed when someone shares their experience but you need to keep it relative the situation that the original poster is in.

If you have someone who can do patents for $3500 are you going to offer that option to this poster? That would be something of value. I doubt the poster is going to find that deal anywhere else.

**aliendropper** · 02-02-2010 06:00 AM

THATS RIGHT

ONLY IDEA RIGHT NOW But ALL THE TOOLS ARE THERE already and the patent is out of date and in public domain.

I will have the market all to myself I can see someone finding it some day and cutting in on the financial acton however the distribution is problem

Only way to contact buyers of big compaines to do trial sales
However I have no experience of contacting buyers

HELP PLEASE
p.s POSTER How can I manufacture in US cheaply instead of CHina?

Originally Posted by rogercbryan

I think this is bad advice for a young entrepreneur. My reasoning is that it is not that simple. Putting an inexperienced person in a position to have to find legal representation on a contingency basis. This is not a simple process. The poster needs to understand that having a patent will not protect him/her from the legalities of defending their idea. Most people think that as long as they have a patent that are completely safe while that is further from the truth. Having a patent actually makes you a target because now you idea is public and anyone can look at it and try to compete against it.

You also did not completely read the original post. The poster did not ask about getting a patent for a design. He sounds like he only has an idea which in fact is not something you can get a patent on. As my post said you can get a patent on schematics showing the design of your idea but you can not simply patent an idea.

It is always welcomed when someone shares their experience but you need to keep it relative the situation that the original poster is in.

If you have someone who can do patents for $3500 are you going to offer that option to this poster? That would be something of value. I doubt the poster is going to find that deal anywhere else.

**rogercbryan** · 02-02-2010 08:45 AM

Produce the item... its that simple... turn the idea into a thing and then worry about all this other garbage. Until you have an actual item produced you are just spinning your wheels. Do what ever it takes to get one of your widgets made. Then come back and ask questions about sales and patents.

**ron komorowski** · 02-02-2010 10:48 AM

Roger...the advice you are giving here is as bad as a mom telling a child to touch a hot stove.

I am in this field for many years and even have become a writer for the only inventors magazine in the U.S.

It is obvious you have not even read one book on inventing or protecting your intellectual property when bringing a product to market.

Your last recommendation is suicidal for this person's idea. You may have alot to offer entrepreneurs but you should study a couple books on inventing before you give them advice on this subject. You can hurt someone very badly.

Another thing you could do is just about every state has some sort of inventor's meetings. Usually monthly...great place to learn and network.

The patent and IP field is very complex/vast and takes years of knowledge/study to get an accurate overview....nothing against you Roger....nobody can know it all.

**rogercbryan** · 02-02-2010 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by ron komorowski

Roger...the advice you are giving here is as bad as a mom telling a child to touch a hot stove.

I am in this field for many years and even have become a writer for the only inventors magazine in the U.S.

It is obvious you have not even read one book on inventing or protecting your intellectual property when bringing a product to market.

Your last recommendation is suicidal for this person's idea. You may have alot to offer entrepreneurs but you should study a couple books on inventing before you give them advice on this subject. You can hurt someone very badly.

Another thing you could do is just about every state has some sort of inventor's meetings. Usually monthly...great place to learn and network.

The patent and IP field is very complex/vast and takes years of knowledge/study to get an accurate overview....nothing against you Roger....nobody can know it all.

If you are going to say I'm wrong then point out what I said is wrong and correct it. I've applied patents twice in my life... so I'm using experience here... What is incorrect about what I'm saying and what is the correct answer? It does no one any good just to say... your wrong... fix it if you so chose...