Yes We Can

[BusinessAdviser]

As far as the comment about higher taxation for the rich, even the two richest men in America agree that they are not being taxed enough, the wealthy (business owners especially) know how to hide income to the extent that they would not be taxed as heavily and in fact show a loss. (I thought this was common knowledge).

The economic situation in America is absolutely horrible especially for the middle and lower class while the rich continue to get richer. At this point it comes down to morals raising minimum wage is not going to hurt the economy or cause inflation no more than allowing business owner to write off trips to Hawaii as business expenses has. Currently someone on minimum wage makes less than $12K a year GROSS income if they work full time. Ask yourself this, could you really live on that, multiply it by 2 even 3 and it still sucks with average rent being 600+ a month, car notes (300+), utilities, phone and gas it is absolutely ridiculous to think that someone earning that amount of money can sustain a living with that income alone.

Sorry but I feel very strongly about this, my mother, bless her soul, works a minimum of 40 hours per week, and only makes about 26K a year, and she can barely make ends meet to the point that I tap into my own income to help her out. I am ready for this CHANGE Obama speaks of and I think he understands and can bring it

I feel bad for you that you think raising the minimum wage is the answer. Did you read the info at the link I posted? The result of an increase in the minimum wage is NOT that the lower classes, for lack of a better reference, become richer. The result is a loss in the number of jobs available to them. You don't want to believe it? Use your noggin. If an employer only has X amount to spend on employees (which is the sum of (1) the wage rate multiplied by (2) the hours worked by each employee multiplied by (3) the number of employees), an increase in the wage rate means that either the hours worked by each employee or the number of employees HAS to decrease. There's no way around it.

[BusinessAdviser]

jmeng although normally we are on the same page I would have to disagree with you on this---but I have some questions for you, do you think that the annual pay increases that congress gives themselves each year is beneficial?
Also since you consider minimum wage a detriment, what would you suggest for those millions and millions of people who barely makes ends meet at $12K a year? Lets say you were one of these 'minimum wagees' how exactly would you make ends meet considering your household expenses etc?

To answer your questions:

Do I think that the annual pay increase that Congress gives itself each year is beneficial? To them, yes. To the rest of the country, no.

My advice to those working at minimum wage is to work more. Sure, 40 hours per week times 52 weeks per year times about $6.00 per hour is $12,480. Try working 80 hours per week instead. $25,000 per year won't have you rollin' in a Benz, but it will pay the bills.

Yes, that is the hardline approach. But what is the other option? Raising the minimum wage. The result? Greater unemployment. Then you have more people making $0 per year. And that's not very much, now is it?

[BusinessAdviser]

Plus, I'm curious as to why everyone thinks that a President will even have any effect on the minimum wage. Do you really think that Barack, if elected, could just sign on a dotted line and raise the minimum wage?! Naive of you if you think so. The President can stand for everything in the world, but at the end of the day, he (or she) has no power in these regards. Congress does.

[BusinessAdviser]

Hi there have been gone for a while, but now that I am back (not that anyone cares) I want to chime in on this cause it is very important to me. Initially I was for Edwards now I am for Obama, but before choosing him I educated myself greatly on what he represented. So I have another question for everyone: Did you watch the CA debates, do you know where each of the candidates stand? Some are stating that Baracks plan does not add up but I would argue against it he has a plan and perhaps if you listen to his statements during the debate or go to his site it would be clearer.

As far as the comment about higher taxation for the rich, even the two richest men in America agree that they are not being taxed enough, the wealthy (business owners especially) know how to hide income to the extent that they would not be taxed as heavily and in fact show a loss. (I thought this was common knowledge).

The economic situation in America is absolutely horrible especially for the middle and lower class while the rich continue to get richer. At this point it comes down to morals raising minimum wage is not going to hurt the economy or cause inflation no more than allowing business owner to write off trips to Hawaii as business expenses has. Currently someone on minimum wage makes less than $12K a year GROSS income if they work full time. Ask yourself this, could you really live on that, multiply it by 2 even 3 and it still sucks with average rent being 600+ a month, car notes (300+), utilities, phone and gas it is absolutely ridiculous to think that someone earning that amount of money can sustain a living with that income alone.

Sorry but I feel very strongly about this, my mother, bless her soul, works a minimum of 40 hours per week, and only makes about 26K a year, and she can barely make ends meet to the point that I tap into my own income to help her out. I am ready for this CHANGE Obama speaks of and I think he understands and can bring it

Again I must ask, Is your argument in favor of a minimum wage hike based on your desire for your mother's employer to be forced to pay her a hire wage (despite the risk that the actual result could be her termination), or is it based on sound economic theory and evidence pointing towards a betterment of the economy and nation as a whole (which I don't think exists)?

[ladyk5]

First let me clarify something, I never said "raising minimum wage is the answer" I merely stated that people cannot live on such wages or even wages that are twice as much and that it is a horrible situation when it occurs. Perhaps you should read MY POST again. I personally dont think raising minimum wage is the answer to ANYTHING because as I stated below (if you had read) you could double it and people would still barely get by. My case is against taxes and public assistance and the fact that Congress gives themselves raises every year and doesnt raise minimum wage. A totally different animal. I am not about handouts, I believe in "give a man a fish he eats for a day teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime"

You feel bad for me...lol that is laughable, but i wont be offended since you obviously did not read my post and also still failed to answer the questions I posed. Now I will read your article but I am willing to bet that it is the one about minimum wage being an empty promise to the poor and how single mothers are not the ones being affected etc etc if so no need for me to click as I have 'been there, read that'. However my point is this if you can raise the pay for all the members of Congress year after year then why not raise the minimum wage? It is a matter of morals when someone can VOTE themselves a raise of many thousands of dollars every year but wont even increase minimum wage by 1 cent. I mean seriously do You think this is right, if so you should feel bad for yourself and use your noggin to gain insight about what congress is doing.

Now I will agree that most of the people are making slightly above minimum wage bringing thier gross income to a whoppin 13K a year (a whole extra $1000 woooweee) However did you stop to think how are these people who make such low amounts supporting themselves? GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE, food stamps, TANF, WIC, Section 8--this form of assistance often adds up to thousands a month now THIS affects the economy. Like I said "give a man a fish....." I have opinions about this but that again is another subject altogether.

Finally I just want to say that it is sad that you feel the need to INSULT or Belittle anyone who disagrees with you, is this your tactic??? Perhaps you should understand what people are saying before attempting to degrade them this is merely a forum where we state opinions and agree or disagree not argue or belittle each other

I feel bad for you that you think raising the minimum wage is the answer. Did you read the info at the link I posted? The result of an increase in the minimum wage is NOT that the lower classes, for lack of a better reference, become richer. The result is a loss in the number of jobs available to them. Additionally, most people trying to support their family are not working at minimum wage, they are working at a level slightly above this. (I will search for the evidence in support of this statement.) Thus, the minimum wage mostly affects high school kids, retirees, and housewives with a job to pass their time. (Again, I will search for the evidence in support of this statement.) You don't want to believe it? Use your noggin. If an employer only has an X amount to spend on employees (which is the sum of (1) the wage rate multiplied by (2) the hours worked by each employee multiplied by (3) the number of employees), an increase in the wage rate means that either the hours worked by each employee or the number of employees HAS to decrease. There's no way around it.

[ladyk5]

Again you didnt read my post my mother does not make minimum wage, therefore a minimum wage increase would not have an affect on her. Again my point is this: Minimum wage increases with not do anything to make people richer, everyone knows this, but is it right for Congress to increase thier own wages when they make nearly half a million dollars a year but not increase the wages of the lowest paid people---that is my point. As far as the point I made about my mother I was just making the point that it is difficult to live even on twice as much as the minimum wage. I have shown her new ways to go about adjusting her lifestyle. My theory on what would improve the economy and the nation is EDUCATION, teach people about money and I mean this literally they should start in middle school educating kids so that they can understand how to live on any income and how to go about getting the income that they want to make.

I am somewhat empathetic to single mothers as I am one, but I educated myself on how money works and it has had a profound affect on how I deal with my finances and my understanding of money. I asked what you would have them do and you stated work 80 hours a week, i mean really be realistic, that is not even feasible especially if you have kids at home or if you ever want to do anything besides work for the rest of your life. But everyone is entitled to thier opinion and that is yours. Mine, like I said before, education, education in a progressive field, eduation on how to make more money, education on how money works (what to do with it when you get it) But then again I am a liberal

Again I must ask, Is your argument in favor of a minimum wage hike based on your desire for your mother's employer to be forced to pay her a hire wage (despite the risk that the actual result could be her termination), or is it based on sound economic theory and evidence pointing towards a betterment of the economy and nation as a whole (which I don't think exists)?

[BusinessAdviser]

First let me clarify something, I never said "raising minimum wage is the answer" I merely stated that people cannot live on such wages or even wages that are twice as much and that it is a horrible situation when it occurs. Perhaps you should read MY POST again. I personally dont think raising minimum wage is the answer to ANYTHING because as I stated below (if you had read) you could double it and people would still barely get by.

I've done it. I have lived on a salary of $23,000 per year. $25,000, which is the salary of one working 80 hours per week at minimum wage and is more than I made at one time, will not have you rollin' in a Benz, as I said, but it is sufficient income to meet your needs. I've been there, done that, and can tell you that it is enough.

My case is against taxes and public assistance and the fact that Congress gives themselves raises every year and doesnt raise minimum wage. A totally different animal. I am not about handouts, I believe in "give a man a fish he eats for a day teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime".

And my point had nothing to do with Congressional members' salaries. It had to do with the fact that everyone that is not in the top tax brackets seems to argue in favor of minimum wage hikes without any understanding of their effect on those making minimum wage. INCREASES IN MINIMUM WAGE LEVELS RESULT IN DECREASES IN THE NUMBER OF JOBS.

You feel bad for me...lol that is laughable, but i wont be offended since you obviously did not read my post and also still failed to answer the questions I posed.

And what question was that? I saw two questions - one regarding my thoughts on Congressional salaries and another regarding how to make a living when earning minimum wage - and answered both. If you provided another that I missed, please throw it my way again, and I'll happily answer it. But I think you are actually mistaken.

Now I will read your article but I am willing to bet that it is the one about minimum wage being an empty promise to the poor and how single mothers are not the ones being affected etc etc if so no need for me to click as I have 'been there, read that'.

You're arguing without knowledge of what you are arguing against. You would have just lost whatever you were willing to bet.

However my point is this if you can raise the pay for all the members of Congress year after year then why not raise the minimum wage?

Again, the result of an increase in the minimum wage level is a decrease in the number of jobs available at minimum wage. THAT is why I oppose minimum wage, and THAT is why the minimum wage should not be raised and should actually be eliminated. The market rate should prevail.

Congress's actions have no effect on the fact that a minimum wage increase results in fewer jobs.

It is a matter of morals when someone can VOTE themselves a raise of many thousands of dollars every year but wont even increase minimum wage by 1 cent. I mean seriously do You think this is right, if so you should feel bad for yourself and use your noggin to gain insight about what congress is doing.

As I answered the first time that you asked it, no, I do not think that Congress should be giving themselves the raises that they do. But is an increase in the minimum wage the answer to justify it? No.

Now I will agree that most of the people are making slightly above minimum wage bringing thier gross income to a whoppin 13K a year (a whole extra $1000 woooweee) However did you stop to think how are these people who make such low amounts supporting themselves? GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE, food stamps, TANF, WIC, Section 8--this form of assistance often adds up to thousands a month now THIS affects the economy. Like I said "give a man a fish....." I have opinions about this but that again is another subject altogether.

Finally I just want to say that it is sad that you feel the need to INSULT or Belittle anyone who disagrees with you, is this your tactic??? Perhaps you should understand what people are saying before attempting to degrade them this is merely a forum where we state opinions and agree or disagree not argue or belittle each other

Please inform me how I am insulting or belittling anyone. It's called candor and it's called debate. Seriously, please let me know which statements are insulting or belittling.

[BusinessAdviser]

Again you didnt read my post my mother does not make minimum wage, therefore a minimum wage increase would not have an affect on her. Again my point is this: Minimum wage increases with not do anything to make people richer, everyone knows this, but is it right for Congress to increase thier own wages when they make nearly half a million dollars a year but not increase the wages of the lowest paid people---that is my point. As far as the point I made about my mother I was just making the point that it is difficult to live even on twice as much as the minimum wage. I have shown her new ways to go about adjusting her lifestyle. My theory on what would improve the economy and the nation is EDUCATION, teach people about money and I mean this literally they should start in middle school educating kids so that they can understand how to live on any income and how to go about getting the income that they want to make.

I am somewhat empathetic to single mothers as I am one, but I educated myself on how money works and it has had a profound affect on how I deal with my finances and my understanding of money. I asked what you would have them do and you stated work 80 hours a week, i mean really be realistic, that is not even feasible especially if you have kids at home or if you ever want to do anything besides work for the rest of your life. But everyone is entitled to thier opinion and that is yours. Mine, like I said before, education, education in a progressive field, eduation on how to make more money, education on how money works (what to do with it when you get it) But then again I am a liberal

OK, cool, I get your point. If someone else makes money, then everyone else DESERVES money too. Look, I've agreed with you on the issue of Congressional raises. However, I don't think you understand what you're asking for. Argue that Congress shouldn't give themselves raises. Argue that Congress should try living the life of someone making 1/10 their salary. Argue that Congress is overpaid. But don't argue for a minimum wage hike because Congress owes it to 'em. THE RESULT OF AN INCREASE IN THE MINIMUM WAGE IS A DECREASE IN THE NUMBER OF JOBS. Thus, an even greater income disparity is created.

I agree, education is key. However, Americans fight education every step of the way. I'm not talking about formal education, but a desire to learn. We are the least educated society among all industrialized nations. We have no idea what is going on within our own country, let alone the rest of the world. We speak one language because that's all we need to do to get by in life. We need to change our aversion to education before we can even change our level of education.

And with regard to you thinking someone working 80 hours per week is unreasonable, you're not alone. Why would someone want to work 80 hours per week when they can work a mere 40, or none for that matter, and get a check in the mail for the difference. I'm in no way criticizing those hardworking Americans who can't seem to make ends meet, but at some point, give me a break. It's a messed up system that creates a disincentive to work. And 80 hours a week being unreasonable? Tell that to the majority of financially successful Americans. They'll laugh at you. There are plenty that work MORE than 80 hours each week. That's the problem. People think a 40 hour work week is hard. That's a joke. And where me working 80 hours and 40 hours per week is the difference between my kids eating dinner each night and not, you're damn right I'm working 80 hours per week. And I'm not going to complain that the world owes me anything because I shouldn't have to work that hard.

[crackah]

He is a good speaker I give him that!

What I am after in a President of the USA is one who is committed to lowering their debts! they are massive!

I also dont want a religious nut running the place.

Huckabee, Im looking at you.... pfft Creationism in schools. yeah right

[BusinessAdviser]

Haha. I dig Huckabee, but only because he wants to catch up with the rest of the world and move to a consumption tax for the majority of our government's revenue rather than the current income tax.

Either way, does the President even matter? For example, Huckabee wouldn't have any effect on whether creationism is taught in schools, and he also won't have any effect on our tax system, yet people seem to think that a President's beliefs and positions really affect us at all. Does anyone think the President really DOES affect such things?

[crackah]

well look at GWB and the state the USA is in now.

Not well. Recession coming up

[BusinessAdviser]

Aw, the state of the economy has nothing to do with Bush, just as it has never had anything to do with any previous President, besides any effect on consumer confidence resulting from his other decisions. What people don't understand is that Congress is the political group that affects the economy. The President doesn't have enough power to significantly affect the economy.

[ladyk5]

Lets say you were one of these 'minimum wagees' how exactly would you make ends meet considering your household expenses etc?

This is the question (bottom of page two), so NO I am not mistaken, it is just apparent you dont read the entire posts. I did not ask how you would live on $25K a year I asked how you would live on minimum wage which is just under $6 per hour, or less than 12K per year, for that matter I lived on ~$18K a year when I first entered the military as an enlisted person.

Now back to this, you say you have worked making $23K a year, I didnt asked that either, my inquiry if you will is about working 80 hours per week at less than $6 per hour. There is a significant difference. So would you be willing to work this amount of hours at this pay to earn that income? Do you think that is realisitc. Simple question.

I never stated your point had anything to do with Congress I said that was my point and as far as justifying it No it does not JUSTIFY anything I just feel, as a person of morals, I cannot fathom how a group of people who consider themselves for the people could do such a thing (I will say again for the umpteenth time this particular thing is a matter of morals, not economics)

Next although it is not the same article (I read one written in 2006) the article is about what I said it was about not only that but it is 12 year old. Now here is another article for the case of your argument Raising the Minimum Wage: Another Empty Promise to the Working Poor | EPI Study simply because of the fact that this is not what I am arguing about at all. I have made my point if you disagree then great you are entitled to your opinion as i am mine as well as everyone else here.

Belittling yes: to say I feel bad for you for feeling the way you feel, seems to me to say that if I dont feel the way you feel or think the way you think then obviously there is something wrong with me. (If not why else would you "feel bad for me") Also you say 'use my noggin' like I am an idiot who has not thought out my opinions, I mean really now...if that is not talking down to someone i dont know what is. My point is this: There is no right or wrong in this, everyone has opinions. I stated mine and you, yours. I would think we can agree to disagree because I am certainly not going to try to change your mind or make you believe what I feel, our experiences are obviously very different and therefore will result in differences of opinions.

[ladyk5]

OK, cool, I get your point. If someone else makes money, then everyone else DESERVES money too. Look, I've agreed with you on the issue of Congressional raises. However, I don't think you understand what you're asking for. Argue that Congress shouldn't give themselves raises. Argue that Congress should try living the life of someone making 1/10 their salary. Argue that Congress is overpaid. But don't argue for a minimum wage hike because Congress owes it to 'em. THE RESULT OF AN INCREASE IN THE MINIMUM WAGE IS A DECREASE IN THE NUMBER OF JOBS. Thus, an even greater income disparity is created.

glad you understand where i am coming from now, but like I said again everyone has thier opinions, I am not one for handouts at all. In an ideal US if we could give all those who want education the full on ability to get it regardless of thier situations, they would have a better chance at jobs and would ultimately not need to depend on government assistance. I think we would save hundreds of thousands of dollars in the end with not having to provide public assistance. Then we could tell those who do not desire to do anything (unless they have a disability or some other reason not to work) that they just have to fend for themselves cause the government is no longer thier meal ticket, really something needs to be done to ensure that assistance is going to those that need it and it is not becoming something that is causing people to become dependant.
I have a cousin who has been on government assistance for over 20 years and has never had a job out of all that time and it PISSES ME OFF on the other hand I have another cousin trying hard to get her education but is struggling to take care of her son, pay for her education and work full time--- as is my mother. But its sad that the way our economy is set up she (the bad cousin) continues to get more assistance by being lazy than those people who are busting thier butts to do better, so that is why I am quite passionate about this who issue. And with your quote below I agree with you Americans do fight education but laziness definitely does not constitute us having to take care of them. Although it will probably never happen I believe the government should help those who want to help themselves and those who do not well they need to move on. Its probably not feasible but I would offer incentives to those who want to better themselves while those who want to do nothing but sit at home would be eventually cut off.

I agree, education is key. However, Americans fight education every step of the way. I'm not talking about formal education, but a desire to learn. We are the least educated society among all industrialized nations. We have no idea what is going on within our own country, let alone the rest of the world. We speak one language because that's all we need to do to get by in life. We need to change our aversion to education before we can even change our level of education.

and yes i agree we are one of the least educated countries but do you still think this would be the case if we started early doing this elementry? middle school? Or is your thought that 'we' would be opposed to introducing it at all. Personally I think kids should go to school year round but again I am an oddball on that

And with regard to you thinking someone working 80 hours per week is unreasonable, you're not alone. Why would someone want to work 80 hours per week when they can work a mere 40, or none for that matter, and get a check in the mail for the difference. I'm in no way criticizing those hardworking Americans who can't seem to make ends meet, but at some point, give me a break. It's a messed up system that creates a disincentive to work. And 80 hours a week being unreasonable? Tell that to the majority of financially successful Americans. They'll laugh at you. There are plenty that work MORE than 80 hours each week. That's the problem. People think a 40 hour work week is hard. That's a joke. And where me working 80 hours and 40 hours per week is the difference between my kids eating dinner each night and not, you're damn right I'm working 80 hours per week. And I'm not going to complain that the world owes me anything because I shouldn't have to work that hard.

i have worked 80 hours a week on some ocassions (specifically in the military) and its no cakewalk, my argument on that is that for most people it would affect your family, health, and performance.

[ladyk5]

Anyway I am done here, good night all of you, hopefull jmeng if there was any misunderstanding between us it is settled good night and God bless