[ron komorowski]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Full credit must go to Ron for his stance on trying to keep manafacturing jobs in the U.S.A, its a curious thing to see an inventor lean towards this direction, with most wanting maximun return in the piggy bank and preffering Chineses help, with the loss of 3 millon jobs in the manafacturing sector between 1995-2005, The U.S needs a few more folks like Ron,,,,

Thanks for the compliment but I sincerely think if I took my product overseas to make my own personal accounts fatter I would be garbage in my opinion.

If I am lucky enough to have this invention I must share to be worth anything. My two manufacturers have a combined 230 employees. My product uses a very small percentage but that will be changing.

This manufacturing operation can spend revenues even with people's businesses here. Maybe even that guy that posted about his new lawn service. We use printing services for packaging. We have a good printer here...and so on. The profits can circulate 50, 100 maybe more times from job to job. So, one dollar times a hundred equals a hundred. Right? My dollar gets used a hundred times in other jobs. That dollar is worth ALOT! Who cares if I could have saved $.25 on foreign manufacturers.

If I made a plastic box that holds candy or something then maybe yeah....outsource it, but not such a serious breakthrough that U.S. schooling taught me to figure out.

Now, when you do things right, caring and building a team you build your heart very strong. Entrepreneurship needs a big strong heart and reason cause otherwise entrepreneurship can be just too damn hard to do.

Ron
Inventor of Handi-Straps
Handi Straps Lifting System Home

[Ahern & Brucker]

Originally Posted by jasaunders

I'm not sure what comes after services. All I'm sure of is that we will eventually shift to something else as we get more efficient and it becomes cheaper and easier to get services provided elsewhere. Already our call centers and help desks have begun being outsourced, which are services. The difference with services though, is that a lot of services can't be outsourced. You can't outsource going to the dentist, or getting your car fixed at the mechanic, or getting a haircut, or the cook making your steak at a restaurant. At least in the foreseeable future, there will be a need for people to provide services locally.

But back in the 17th century when a majority of people worked in agriculture, who would of thought that one day there might be a thing called a factory that made things called machines. And in the 19th century, when a worker was in a factory, who would of thought that one day there would be a computer and robot doing the same job. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what's next...

might not have to wait that long?

surely just being a nation of consumers can't work can it? (and poorly educated consumers at that)

oh, in one of your other posts, you made mention of the farmers picking up and moving to manufacturing factory jobs in the city... I don't think it was a ssmooth of a transition as you may remember... it's not like the farmers all woke up and said "well, i think i'll leave this fine farm life eating fresh food and carrying on the family traditions to go and get one of those swell new factory jobs in the city"..

let's sell this way of life so peaceful and wholesome and go live in the gutter or some dive rooming house with the wife and kids.

I'm sure you didn't intend for it to sound as great for the farmers as it really was and i got your point but... something is likely to happen in yur generation... a big change from one thing to another and I worry that you have nothing left to rely on or that will have any great value...

[ron komorowski]

Originally Posted by Ahern & Brucker

might not have to wait that long?

surely just being a nation of consumers can't work can it? (and poorly educated consumers at that)

oh, in one of your other posts, you made mention of the farmers picking up and moving to manufacturing factory jobs in the city... I don't think it was a ssmooth of a transition as you may remember... it's not like the farmers all woke up and said "well, i think i'll leave this fine farm life eating fresh food and carrying on the family traditions to go and get one of those swell new factory jobs in the city"..

let's sell this way of life so peaceful and wholesome and go live in the gutter or some dive rooming house with the wife and kids.

I'm sure you didn't intend for it to sound as great for the farmers as it really was and i got your point but... something is likely to happen in yur generation... a big change from one thing to another and I worry that you have nothing left to rely on or that will have any great value...

Both of you...pretty interesting thoughts. I love history, it helps us figure the future.
The farming issue mentioned here, remember way back when...we would barter for each others goods which we made (manufactured). Legal tender replaced the barter system to expand the economy.

Legal tender was still designed for the same system as barter though. I'll trade you a bucket of tomatoes for your box of strawberries. The barter system. All countries did this. Those that excelled in productions would export. The exports make a country stronger. If there are no exports a country will just maintain, sustain. The U.S. would never have become a superpower.

Well, if all just want to wheel deal and steal and just sell each other stuff, where will the tomatoes and strawberries come from? We have no deal!!!!

Multiply this equation by many years and trillions of dollars, the basis is still the same; the equation. Nobody wants to make the tomatoes or strawberries around here anymore, moreover, if there are any around they would rather steal them in a scam deal than make their own!

We can just get the best of deals by brokering between other countries but this is not enough for a country to thrive.

Now, does anyone disagree with this formula? Do you see why I am so die hard on having my product manufactured here? Am I one of the first to see this situation for how serious this is? I think the last 20 yrs. as a guess of this kind of "just sell each other stuff" mentality put our economic cycle through "the ringer" It will take guys that think like me and some years to get us back out.

Is this why we had the .com bust? The bubble busted and caused a recession? A flood of people trying to rush the internet and all try to sell each other stuff, but much of the rush failed. Know why? There wasn't enough product to sell. Have we ever recovered from this in 2001? I say no. We have had 1 or 2 good economic years in the past 8 and that was only because of forced economy with record low interest rates which caused a housing bubble which popped in all our faces.

By the way jssaunders...making a website is manufacturing. This counts in manufacturing numbers, but if they fail to produce it just amounts to nothing, and does this manufacturing job really produce a product? Or just more wheeling and dealing?

Time for a change fellas. We gotta get back to it, work hard and make stuff again and export. Get our hands dirty again.

Ron
Inventor of Handi-Straps
Handi Straps Lifting System Home

[ron komorowski]

Originally Posted by CLICK ME!

How will we outsource the service sector jobs? While some services can be outsourced, there are others that just aren't. Also, we haven't outsourced all production of goods, but rather just shifted our focus according to what makes sense from a comparative advantage point of view. While certain industries have been relocated to more efficient areas, such as steel production, other new ones take their place, such as in the technology sector.

WE OUTSOURCED OUR SERVICE JOBS!!!!! 20 million illegal aliens taking our servicing jobs, hording the money to bring back into their country's economic cycle; which has directly stripped a large portion of our economic cycle. That is a major reason why our economic cycle has got so bumpy and slow. It is leaking!!!! I also say the whole mortgage collapse happened because U.S. citizens can't go and get a second job to pay the mortgage because the illegal aliens took all those types of jobs!!!

Yes, technology manufacturing replaced steel and other simple manufacturing. Do we want to make steel or lead the world in technology? Problems are, we left little for the guy who does not have the brain capacity for high tech and we "got smart" and outsourced the high tech manufacturing too. Japan and China are making all the electronics and other high tech.

Phillips, RCA. I don't hear them like they once were. I hear Samsung, Mitsubishi, Sanyo and the list goes on and on of companies that don't sound too American.

We got trouble people. We gotta get mad! Get tough! Bring it all back!

Ron
Inventor of Handi-Straps
Handi Straps Lifting System Home

[ADVERTISE HERE!]

Originally Posted by ron komorowski

WE OUTSOURCED OUR SERVICE JOBS!!!!! 20 million illegal aliens taking our servicing jobs, hording the money to bring back into their country's economic cycle; which has directly stripped a large portion of our economic cycle. That is a major reason why our economic cycle has got so bumpy and slow. It is leaking!!!! I also say the whole mortgage collapse happened because U.S. citizens can't go and get a second job to pay the mortgage because the illegal aliens took all those types of jobs!!!

Yes, technology manufacturing replaced steel and other simple manufacturing. Do we want to make steel or lead the world in technology? Problems are, we left little for the guy who does not have the brain capacity for high tech and we "got smart" and outsourced the high tech manufacturing too. Japan and China are making all the electronics and other high tech.

Phillips, RCA. I don't hear them like they once were. I hear Samsung, Mitsubishi, Sanyo and the list goes on and on of companies that don't sound too American.

We got trouble people. We gotta get mad! Get tough! Bring it all back!

Ron
Inventor of Handi-Straps
Handi Straps Lifting System Home

Might there be negative effects to keeping jobs in the U.S. that could be more efficiently produced elsewhere?

[jasaunders]

Ron, it seems like according to you, America has gone to shit and we are all living in a dark and gloomy society where we struggle on a daily basis to survive. You have a very pessimistic view and must be living in a different world than I am.

From my view, people today are living more comfortably than any generation before them. People are more educated and living much longer. In general, people have more of a personal/social life, take more vacations, and spend more time with their family than anytime in the last 100 years. Doesn't sound too gloomy to me.

You make it sound like one day manufacturing is just going to collapse. Manufacturing, as a percentage of GDP, has been declining for over 50 years. It now makes up about 20% of the economy, compared to almost 80% which is made up by services. This didn't happen overnight and it's not going to one day hit a breaking point and cause an armageddon. You also allude to the fact that the heart of America is manufacturing. Men and women (or maybe you think only men, since women work much less than males in the manufacturing sector) who work on factory floors or assembly lines performing unskilled labor are what makes America.

What has made America is innovation and competition. The United States has always strived to be ahead of the curve in new product development. For centuries we have been a leader in the economic, medical, science, and technology fields. We are losing our edge in technology, science and engineering. These fields are where the competition is today and where we are losing the battle, not manufacturing. Anyone, who is willing to work for low wages, can perform manufacturing work. That's why it goes where people have the lowest standards of living.

Here's a good paper which I think you'll like on the future of American Innovation:
http://www.futureofinnovation.org/PDF/Benchmarks.pdf

Ron says "By the way jssaunders...making a website is manufacturing. This counts in manufacturing numbers"

Where did you get this?
According to the U.S. Department of Labor, "The Manufacturing sector comprises establishments engaged in the mechanical, physical, or chemical transformation of materials, substances, or components into new products."

The NAICS codes for what is counted for manufacturing are also listed, and websites does not fall into manufacturing. The category for Computer Product Manufacturing 334, includes sub-categories 3341-3346, none of which are even close to websites.
So please, either state some reference of where you are coming up with this information that websites are manufacturing, or stop making things up.

Ron says "Yes, technology manufacturing replaced steel and other simple manufacturing. Do we want to make steel or lead the world in technology? Problems are, we left little for the guy who does not have the brain capacity for high tech and we "got smart" and outsourced the high tech manufacturing too. Japan and China are making all the electronics and other high tech."

We want to lead the world in technology, not make steel. Do you want to make the machines that farmers use to plow their fields, or do you want to hand-pick ears of corn walking in a field all day?

Survival of the fittest my friend. The economy has been shifting for decades, you eventually have to learn new skills. You can't sit idle as the world passes you by. You must learn new things, learn new skills. You can't expect your job to be there forever. And by the way, Japan faces the same threats we do. They deal with the same pressure from manufacturing in China and to overcome that, they innovate. Why do you think that the number of people attending college continues to grow? It's because people realize that the economy is/has shifted and you need new "skills" to be a productive member of society. The guy who does not have the capacity for high tech as you say, must learn new things or risk being obsolete.

My father has worked as a dealer of metalworking machinery his whole life. About ten years ago his business started to decline and he realized he needed to get with the program. What did he do? He learned how to use a computer. He now has a company website, uses the internet to find machines for sale and find new buyers and even sells machines on ebay. This has opened up his business to a global marketplace as he now has access to a larger market and on occassion ships metalworking machines all over the world.

What would have happened had he not learned to use a computer? He would probably be out of business now. Instead he adapted to a changing marketplace, learned a new skill and took advantage of the opportunity the internet presented. There is a quote from an anonymous author that says "Innovation is the ability to see change as an opportunity - not a threat." This hold true in every facet of the United States economy.

Bob says "you made mention of the farmers picking up and moving to manufacturing factory jobs in the city... I don't think it was a ssmooth of a transition as you may remember"

I'm not saying it was smooth. But farmers were enticed to come to the city for a reason. It was probably extremely hard on the new factory workers, just like it is very hard on current factory workers that must learn a new skill. It's never easy on the labor force when we have a sectoral shift, but people adapt to the change, whether its hard or not.

Bob says "surely just being a nation of consumers can't work can it?"

Nope, but who says we are. Services are consumables. The GDP (or GNP for domestic production) measures the ouput of our economy. And it grows steadily over the long-run. Of course we have hiccups, but these have been happening since the beginning of our economic system and have smoothed out over time as we have learned how to adjust to economic shocks. But we continue to produce more and be more efficient. If I can produce 5 boxes today and tomorrow I can produce 50 boxes, do I need to work as much tomorrow as I do today? No, I can work 10 times less if I want, because I became more efficient. Recessions help put people in check (hopefully), so they realize they can't always spend more than they make.

[nocci01]

There's very little anyone can do about outsourcing. Don't blame the foreigners...more power to free enterprise...if they're willing to learn and work harder than North Americans...they should get these jobs. Don't take that the wrong way. I love North America and couldn't imagine living in any other part of the world...however, I believe (along with many other people who are experts) that the 40 year float is over...meaning never before in history has there been a middle class...it's going away forever!

Just remember this: while the West went to sleep...the East awakens! Look at the graph on page 15 of this whitepaper: http://lieberman.senate.gov/document...Offshoring.pdf.

This is only 1 of numerous reasons why large corporations are outsourcing. People in India are costing corporations about $15,000 per year for the same job that would cost them $60,000 per year in Silicon Valley...hmm...no wonder they outsource.

If you want to research more on this topic, I highly recommend the updated version of "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman. As mentioned before...just listen to this audio: 15 Years Left.

[ron komorowski]

Originally Posted by jasaunders

Ron, it seems like according to you, America has gone to shit and we are all living in a dark and gloomy society where we struggle on a daily basis to survive. You have a very pessimistic view and must be living in a different world than I am.

From my view, people today are living more comfortably than any generation before them. People are more educated and living much longer. In general, people have more of a personal/social life, take more vacations, and spend more time with their family than anytime in the last 100 years. Doesn't sound too gloomy to me.

You make it sound like one day manufacturing is just going to collapse. Manufacturing, as a percentage of GDP, has been declining for over 50 years. It now makes up about 20% of the economy, compared to almost 80% which is made up by services. This didn't happen overnight and it's not going to one day hit a breaking point and cause an armageddon. You also allude to the fact that the heart of America is manufacturing. Men and women (or maybe you think only men, since women work much less than males in the manufacturing sector) who work on factory floors or assembly lines performing unskilled labor are what makes America.

What has made America is innovation and competition. The United States has always strived to be ahead of the curve in new product development. For centuries we have been a leader in the economic, medical, science, and technology fields. We are losing our edge in technology, science and engineering. These fields are where the competition is today and where we are losing the battle, not manufacturing. Anyone, who is willing to work for low wages, can perform manufacturing work. That's why it goes where people have the lowest standards of living.

Here's a good paper which I think you'll like on the future of American Innovation:
http://www.futureofinnovation.org/PDF/Benchmarks.pdf

Ron says "By the way jssaunders...making a website is manufacturing. This counts in manufacturing numbers"

Where did you get this?
According to the U.S. Department of Labor, "The Manufacturing sector comprises establishments engaged in the mechanical, physical, or chemical transformation of materials, substances, or components into new products."

The NAICS codes for what is counted for manufacturing are also listed, and websites does not fall into manufacturing. The category for Computer Product Manufacturing 334, includes sub-categories 3341-3346, none of which are even close to websites.
So please, either state some reference of where you are coming up with this information that websites are manufacturing, or stop making things up.

Ron says "Yes, technology manufacturing replaced steel and other simple manufacturing. Do we want to make steel or lead the world in technology? Problems are, we left little for the guy who does not have the brain capacity for high tech and we "got smart" and outsourced the high tech manufacturing too. Japan and China are making all the electronics and other high tech."

We want to lead the world in technology, not make steel. Do you want to make the machines that farmers use to plow their fields, or do you want to hand-pick ears of corn walking in a field all day?

Survival of the fittest my friend. The economy has been shifting for decades, you eventually have to learn new skills. You can't sit idle as the world passes you by. You must learn new things, learn new skills. You can't expect your job to be there forever. And by the way, Japan faces the same threats we do. They deal with the same pressure from manufacturing in China and to overcome that, they innovate. Why do you think that the number of people attending college continues to grow? It's because people realize that the economy is/has shifted and you need new "skills" to be a productive member of society. The guy who does not have the capacity for high tech as you say, must learn new things or risk being obsolete.

My father has worked as a dealer of metalworking machinery his whole life. About ten years ago his business started to decline and he realized he needed to get with the program. What did he do? He learned how to use a computer. He now has a company website, uses the internet to find machines for sale and find new buyers and even sells machines on ebay. This has opened up his business to a global marketplace as he now has access to a larger market and on occassion ships metalworking machines all over the world.

What would have happened had he not learned to use a computer? He would probably be out of business now. Instead he adapted to a changing marketplace, learned a new skill and took advantage of the opportunity the internet presented. There is a quote from an anonymous author that says "Innovation is the ability to see change as an opportunity - not a threat." This hold true in every facet of the United States economy.

Bob says "you made mention of the farmers picking up and moving to manufacturing factory jobs in the city... I don't think it was a ssmooth of a transition as you may remember"

I'm not saying it was smooth. But farmers were enticed to come to the city for a reason. It was probably extremely hard on the new factory workers, just like it is very hard on current factory workers that must learn a new skill. It's never easy on the labor force when we have a sectoral shift, but people adapt to the change, whether its hard or not.

Bob says "surely just being a nation of consumers can't work can it?"

Nope, but who says we are. Services are consumables. The GDP (or GNP for domestic production) measures the ouput of our economy. And it grows steadily over the long-run. Of course we have hiccups, but these have been happening since the beginning of our economic system and have smoothed out over time as we have learned how to adjust to economic shocks. But we continue to produce more and be more efficient. If I can produce 5 boxes today and tomorrow I can produce 50 boxes, do I need to work as much tomorrow as I do today? No, I can work 10 times less if I want, because I became more efficient. Recessions help put people in check (hopefully), so they realize they can't always spend more than they make.

WOW! Very intelligent Joshua! Your a smart guy!

I know only what I see and experience for the past 28 yrs. I worked a full time job in a major printing facility at 15 yrs. old while in full time HS. We printed 4 magazines, books and a ton of campaign material as the mayor of Yonkers, NY owned the place. At 17 after I graduated I went into the machinist field like your dad.

At that time there was plenty of these manufacturing jobs. There were men that wanted to work with their hands and took pride. Today, not everyone can go to college. Some don't have the mental capacity to accept the information. Damn truth. These people no longer can get a decent job without college. They are the middle and lower class but they are also the masses that the upper class sells their products too. Proof is the economy today. The rich have money to spend but the masses don't.

We need manufacturing jobs for these people. You will see, the inner cities, the ghettos getting bigger and bigger. I have talked to some high up people about more subsidized manufacturing in these area to supply jobs. I've talked to states.

I live smack in central NJ. Everything goes on here. We have everything in business. Oil refineries, pharmaceutical and telecommunication headquarters (many), the largest concentration of engineers and scientist in the country, many corporate headquarters, many manufacturing facilities and corporate offices even built on swamps because we have so many. You can learn what this country really does on a place like this and 40 miles from NYC. You don't need gov't statistics or information in colleges, it's in your face.

15 yrs ago a guy I know came up to us; just a guy. Out of the blue he said to the group of us 20 somethings and said, "I feel sorry for you guys, 30 yrs. ago if you didn't go to college and wanted to work you could go to a factory and make a decent living; that's all gone now) He owned two houses, nice car or two and a few bucks in the bank in case the kids needed something all from a career in a manufacturing plant.

My case today. I am surrounded by inventors. I am the lead model in my inventor's group which I will be attending tonight. All these inventors and the companies they know keep saying, make in China, make in China, China, China

I AM SICK OF HEARING IT!!!!!!!!! I got a call on my machine from a guy in the inventor's group "Hey Ron, I got a good price from a guy in China on your invention" (He actually shopped my product in China!!!!) I'm gonna kick him in the leg tonight when I see him!

Your Dad's job, machined metal parts, plastics, electronics, computer components, cars, EVEN FURNITURE NOW.....everything....made in China or Japan.

What do you think is going to happen if this keeps up? Will we only have the rich engineering and selling and the rest will stand outside their facilities begging for a handout?

I have a big article coming out on this subject. What? Are we not capable of making things ourselves? Look at us! We don't even want to clean our own homes or mow our lawns anymore!!! We have an illegal alien do it! Don't tell me everything is just fine. Yes, we had a GREAT life the last so many years just like you said, but now, we have spent our riches and the free ride is over since this year.

To ignore these changes can lead to a total U.S. collapse which many countries around the world talk about. You won't hear it here, no, no,no...the medias and the Feds won't tell you that...they don't want pandemonium...but BBC news will tell you.

Ron
Inventor of Handi-Straps
Handi Straps Lifting System Home